Author Topic: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion  (Read 9742 times)

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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2010, 08:45:52 PM »
Quote
I'd like to believe that some of the worst ghostwritten books were not written by the same people that did the best ones.
Yeah wouldn't we all, but according to Wikipedia, which I trust with everything short of my life, this book was brought to us by Lisa Harkrader,
who is also credited with book 44
Obviously not the case then

p.s. yes! when did this get a sub board, I was gonna recommend just that once this was over, you know, for when we do it next time ;), but nows cool too

The Aussie book? Crap. Well...I guess everyone is capable of good ideas and bad ideas.

A sub-forum? Cool.


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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2010, 08:48:49 PM »
Keep in mind, Chad, the ghostwriter didn't come up with the ideas....she just wrote down what Applegate had already come up with. Australia was an Applegate idea, the execution was handled by the ghostwriter.

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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2010, 08:52:52 PM »
Ok. I guess there is a difference there.


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Offline SuperBlue

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 02:26:39 AM »
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1) In this book the Yeerks finally decide to start looking into the rumor that started way back in #4; that the Animorphs may be human after all. They do this through collecting blood left behind at battles and finding traces of human blood and comparing it to other samples throughout the city. Does this seem like a plausable plan? Clearly it works in the context of the novel, but should it have worked? Does the science there make sense? Is it the Yeerks best bet of finding the Animorphs?

That's what they did!? I thought they got their blood while morphed and somehow the morphed blood showed traces of their human blood! What you just said made a lot more sense but when did they ever bleed while in Human morph? The only time they were human in one of their daily epic Yeerk battles was when they needed to heal and then about 2 minutes later they're back in their Animal forms

I'm pretty sure that they got the blood from their animal morphs, which is why I'm not entirely sure that the science works. How much human DNA of Jake would be floating around in the blood of a Siberian Tiger that he's morphed? idk....seems like a stretch.



And it completely contradicts KA's thing about becoming a complete DNA replica of the animal they morph. Funny how the Yeerks find out about the Animorphs with the help of a KASU
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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 09:46:50 AM »
I mostly liked this book. It had a couple of iffy moments, but overall it was cool.

Some scenes that I liked: Tobias grabbing Marco's new morphing suit and saying <Does this remind you of anything?>, with Marco replying "Yeah, it reminds me of why I don't have a pet bird." (Paraphrased) And the subsequent using of the shirt to pretend to be Blue Band Hork-Bajir.

I also love the Tobias and Lauren interactions we get. When he morphs her dog, and she holds his face to comfort him, and when he confronts her in human form... They were both very powerful moments for me.

On the topic of Jordan thinking Ax is a Pokemon... I've come up with a theory to make this more realistic considering her age. I'm thinking that Sarah (Serah? I forget) was afraid of Ax, and Jordan tried to comfort her by saying "He's like a Pokemon!", and then when Sarah believed her, she just played along to keep her from freaking out.
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 09:52:22 AM »
I didn't get around to reading the book, but I thought Sara was the one that said it. If it was Jordan, she may have indeed just called him a Pokemon so sarah wouldn't freak.


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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 06:30:39 PM »
You know, considering the whole blood-bank DNA thing doesn't really make much sense, and the fact that everyone pretty much hates the way David was brought back one book ago, I just had a thought.

Wouldn't a David returns book have been MUCH better if it dealt with David somehow finding/being found by the Yeerks and unveiling the Ani's identity. The basic premise of the book(s) could be the same, except we could spend more time on the evacuations, cut out the Crayak crap and reintroduce David properly. The Rachel book could end with her having the choice to kill him or not, same as originally, and then the Tobias book could be dedicated towards uncovering Loren, same as originally, only her information could be found via Chee-net or some other accident non-blood-bank related.

Sorry, typically I hate rewriting what is canon, b/c like it or not, it's canon. But I do feel like the evacuations, while well written, could have been drawn out a bit more. I also feel like #48 needed a bit of an overhaul and could have been done SO much better.

/endrant

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Offline SuperBlue

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 06:37:45 PM »
I always thought it was David who ratted(no pun intended) them out in the first place seeing as his book is right before this one and we don't know whether or not Rachel killed him. I think it's way too big a coincidence
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Offline Kotetsu1442

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2010, 02:51:58 PM »
Questions
1) In this book the Yeerks finally decide to start looking into the rumor that started way back in #4; that the Animorphs may be human after all. They do this through collecting blood left behind at battles and finding traces of human blood and comparing it to other samples throughout the city. Does this seem like a plausable plan? Clearly it works in the context of the novel, but should it have worked? Does the science there make sense? Is it the Yeerks best bet of finding the Animorphs?

Being as there were some Yeerks who suspected that the 'Andalite bandits' were in fact human, I think the blood study project should have happened a long time ago realistically. Also, the break-in at The Gardens was another example of an illogical plot hole on KA's part (like it has been mentioned, people tend to bash the ghostwriters, but the general plot is often fairly KA's responsiblity, it is only the details of the execution that can fairly be blamed on KA; even then I would like to think that in editing/reviewing the work submitted by the ghostwriters that KA would have rejected anything she though wasn't within her standards, so I think it is just as fair to judge the weaknesses as well as the praise as a result of KA's work). Back to what I was saying, before I so rudely interrupted myself with a parenthetical insert, The Gardens break-in was silly, if the Yeerks were collecting animal blood samples and finding traces of human DNA there would be no cause for them to break-in and steal the original animal samples for comparison, they could care less about the original animal samples when it came to matching up the human DNA, this was just a plot device to allow the Anis to discover that the Yeerks were onto them, and this could have been done another way (i.e. Chee network) and still lead to them finding and going to the blood bank database in the same manner.

Anyways, though I think this plot happening so late in the game and the discovery of it was poorly done, I think the statements about the science 'not making sense' isn't very strongly founded. There simply were not enough details behind how the morphing technology works initially, but merely having DNA samples floating around in their natural bodies wouldn't make sense, the immune system would work out these over time; later Ax established that the axquired DNA samples were stored in molecular spheres that are supercooled to sub-zero temperatures are are undetectable to the immune system (Although the rare allergy to the morphing technology, as seen in Mertil, would suggest a rare autoimmune disorder where a particularly powerful immune system is capable of detecting the molecular spheres). Presumably, like other Andalite computing technology that was capable of responding to though-speech, the Escafil device implanted some form of nanites that were responsive to the mind's image and thoughts and activated the stored DNA to, through some process create the animal body from the sample while pushing the 'original' body into Z-space and establishing a connection. Though it is never addressed, one could presume that all the samples are pushed into Z-space within the original body, which is why you cannot go directly from one morph to another, but one could also assume that a sample of the 'original' body's DNA is stored in the 'morphed' body so that the technology is capable of drawing back/reconstructing the original body upon demorphing. Therefore, even though it is not established until this book, it makes sense that DNA samples of the humans be present in the animal bodies, given the general science that makes up this sci-fi technology.

And yes, like I said, the Yeerks should have at least gone so far as to firmly establish that the Anis were in fact human through this method much earlier on with only a little amount of investigation of the suspicion, then quickly moved onto the DNA database project much sooner when they realized they were dealing with humans.



2) Clearly the focus of this book is Loren's reintroduction. What do you think about adult-Loren, given what we know about her from TAC?

At this point, she is a fully adult character in a children/young adult book, and is now a minor character rather than a central character, so there really isn't much too her after this book. Too me... well I'll finish my thought after the next question...



3) On a similar vein, what do you think about Loren's amnesia? It seems kind of...coincidental.. .that the human who had to have her memory modified by the Ellimist ends up completely losing her memory altogether only a few years later.

I think that saying that she had her 'memory modified by the Ellimist' is quite misleading or is a bit of a misunderstanding, as well as some of these other thoughts:

I thought it was really unrealistic that someone would get amnesia just to have a tragic accident later
I always saw the amnesia and accident thing as part of The Ellimist's plan. Like yeah, my reasoning is a little off since she was pregnant when The Ellimist changed Elfangor's timeline but she had her accident after Tobias had been born, but still.
Of course the Ellimist gave her amnesia, but she was able to SOMEWHAT remember a little, piece by piece. But yeah, Ellimist did all that.
Yeah it seems like KA gave Loren an amnesia overload. First she doesn't remember her husband and then she doesn't remember her son...

The misunderstanding here is that The Ellimist didn't modify her memory/give her amnesia. He (it?) allowed the original time-line to progress normally: Elfangor, with the time-matrix, had the ability to decide to either A) return to his people and continue to fight, while the Andalites would remove Loren's memory of her space adventure and place her back on Earth OR B) flee to Earth, live as a human away from the war, marry Loren, impregnate her and so on. Presumably, at this point in the Ellimist/Crayak game, the Ellimist was allowed to ensure that option A was chosen at this point in time (we can call this point in time 'x') in exchange for allowing Crayak some other action elsewhere in the galaxy. However, in his 'not-interfering directly' way, he instead allowed the timeline to continue along Elfangor's choice of option B for several years until Loren was pregnant, then he moved the impregnation sideways to a parallel time-line (time-line A) while simultaneously moving Elfangor sideways and backwards to the same parallel time-line but back at time 'x'. The result from Elfangor's perspective is that he is placed in the situation he would have reached had he chosen option A, but with the additional memories of several years from the now non-existent time-line B; but from Loren's perspective she went through her space adventure then had her memories of it removed by the Andalites (not Ellimist) and was returned to Earth, but never with Elfangor, she never married him and instead married another man but was several years later impregnated by the child from the parallel time-line (B) rather than her actual husband in this time-line that was ultimately established. Allowing it to progress like this allowed the Ellimist to bring over some effects of timeline B (like Tobias's birth) rather than simply forcing Elfangor into time-line A in the first place.

It sounds complicated in this way, but you just have to visualize the 6-dimensional actions preformed on a 4-dimensional time-line as is described in TAC (and elaborated indirectly upon in other novels); so yes, Loren did experience her space adventure after being abducted, and then had her memory of it removed; but no, in the established time-line she did not return to Earth with Elfangor and have a child, she was returned to Earth alone and without the memory and established an went about her normal life and married in a normal fashion (though impregnated with a fetus from another time-line, unbeknownst to her), had the husband run out on her in a sadly normal Earth way, then had a 'normal' accident and a normal amnesia. Her recovery of flash images of the alien adventure along with flash images of her normal life (like her baby) is an interesting side effect of the accident and her recovery.

Anyways, as far as what I think about Loren's character in this book as opposed to TAC and the coincidence of the accident... it really seems like yes, it is a strangely fantastic coincidence that becomes all too present in the Animorphs books, especially toward the end, which forces a stronger suspension of disbelief than should be the case. I think it was done because the author needed to resolve the positive, strong character established in TAC with the 'present day' parent who abandoned her child; but I see it as a shame that KA was unwilling to let a positive young Loren become an irresponsible and negative character and leave her out of the present day animorphs books, as if we don't want to accept that someone we like could become such an irresponsible mother after her husband walked out on her; while on the other hand the books explored Chapman, a dislikable, unloyal, opportunist of a youth to become entirely self-sacrificing (of his freewill and entire life) to save his daughter. I really liked the theme in this book... well wait until the next question...



4) This book marks a clear turning point in the series. The Animorphs finally decide to tell their parents about the invasion and evacuate them to safety. Do you think that these scenes were well-done, or did they leave you wanting more? What did you think about the parent's reactions?



I did think it was pretty well done. Like I was saying, I liked the theme in this books of how, facing unknown and great dangers parents will, without stopping to think or hesitate about it, place themselves in danger to save their children. However, as I was saying about Loren, I don't think it was necessary to make her turn out to not be the irresponsible, possibly druggy person we had reason to believe through the whole series and to instead be a saintly handi-capped person who does nothing but live on low means and volunteer for her church and make comments about how sweet little flies, who only abandoned her child not because she was irresponsible but because she lost her memory and was incapable of raising her child and didn't want him to go through life with an infirm mom when she believed he may be well taken care of by other relatives. It would have been much more powerful to have Loren be the reminder that, though many parents would gladly and unhesitatingly give everything to protect their children, some people who become parents simply are not good, responsible, loving parents regardless of how nice of people they may be.



5) When they go to save Jake's family Jake is too late. His parents have both been made Controllers and Jake takes the risky move of morphing in front of them as a sort of 'in your face' moment. This scene is a turning point for Jake, because his purpose in the war (to save Tom) has been ripped from him. Do you think that Jake's reaction was appropriate? Do you think that this scene would have played out better if it were under Jake's narration?

I don't have a lot to say here, other than along the same lines as others, I thought it was a cool, powerful scene; well played as it was and I appreciated it plenty from Tobias' perspective and with his own insights.



6) Anything else?

Not a lot else to say, other than that I agree Terenia: I ultimately acknowledge that canon is canon and it is unfair to presume the right to tell an author what he/she can and cannot establish within their creation, but yes I think that #48 could have been completely different and much less silly/damaging to David's return/conclusion. Though again, I see nothing implausible about how the blood bank database story worked out (except possibly that it would have happened much earlier on) in this book.

And Blue M&M, I respect your right to interpret the unknown in whatever way you wish, but I disagree with and tend to avoid your assumption in this last case, because I think the final couple of chapters of #48 was some of the most powerful material in the series (the big redeemer for that book) and that assuming Rachel either did or did not kill him removes the ambiguity that is so much of a powerful tool for KA and is really the whole point in that conclusion; without the ambiguity there is no point to that conclusion and the entire duality that is Rachel's character.
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Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2010, 05:02:24 AM »
1) In this book the Yeerks finally decide to start looking into the rumor that started way back in #4; that the Animorphs may be human after all. They do this through collecting blood left behind at battles and finding traces of human blood and comparing it to other samples throughout the city. Does this seem like a plausable plan? Clearly it works in the context of the novel, but should it have worked? Does the science there make sense? Is it the Yeerks best bet of finding the Animorphs?
It was a nice plotting device, the 'blood-bank' idea intrinsicly fits into the context, yes, but I couldn't help seeing the KASU when I first read it either. The blood is technically a morphing product also, so it should be a 100% fully duplicate of the original animal. Unless, what the Yeerks were examining from the samples was filed under the 'encapsulated' thing Ax had previously attempted to explain about morphing.

...The Gardens break-in was silly, if the Yeerks were collecting animal blood samples and finding traces of human DNA there would be no cause for them to break-in and steal the original animal samples for comparison, they could care less about the original animal samples when it came to matching up the human DNA, this was just a plot device to allow the Anis to discover that the Yeerks were onto them, and this could have been done another way (i.e. Chee network) and still lead to them finding and going to the blood bank database in the same manner...
Exactly. And I liked your explanation for the 'trace of human blood' in the morphed blood samples, Kotetsu1442-dude, but I still it's somewhat contradictory in this fictional tec to have an 'exact' duplicate that is not 'exact', know what I mean?! But you are right, the morphing tech wasn't fully elaborated.

To have this finally happening here, since #4, seems like a long shot at calling the Yeerks stupid and slow, when the Yeerks were anything but. But I am content with the way that the enemy finally figured it out.
Whether it was David 'ratting' out, or his sidekicks that were last seen running for their lives in the previous story, or an unforeseen backup plan of Visser One's, or Cassie being sighted in the plane to Sydney, or the other various related factors the Anis overlooked (eg:.primarily Ax doing all the verbal exchanges)... The list of hypothesis continues... The truth is, it was about time the Yeerks figured it out. And it was a legitimate way to kickstart the final arc.



2) Clearly the focus of this book is Loren's reintroduction. What do you think about adult-Loren, given what we know about her from TAC?
I think it was realistic to have the character have a distinctively different persona than the TAC one.
But Loren had lost her 'flair' for me in this story. I thought this shot at having Tobias and Loren built a maternal thing was pretty badly applied, regardless of it fitting the plot of 'save the parents'.
Whether the character could have 'said' more by being a negative change from its previous appearance, it's plausible, but, to me, Loren wasn't really gonna contribute much without Elfangor there.



3) On a similar vein, what do you think about Loren's amnesia? It seems kind of...coincidental.. .that the human who had to have her memory modified by the Ellimist ends up completely losing her memory altogether only a few years later.
I am still a little confused on the details to Loren's amnesia versus her blindness. I had thought she lost both in one accident!?!?
I am left still feeling like her past is a bit ambiguous. Like Blue M&M said, it's a bit lame to have her 'inserted' just for 'having her inserted's sake. But as long as the topic was 'save the Anis' parents' it was appropriate, I see it.


4) This book marks a clear turning point in the series. The Animorphs finally decide to tell their parents about the invasion and evacuate them to safety. Do you think that these scenes were well-done, or did they leave you wanting more? What did you think about the parent's reactions?
I, too, recall the scenes being short, yes, but entertaining nevertheless. It was good to have Tobias pick the things that he would invevitable compare to his mother at the end of the story (ref. to the unconditional love and put themselves in danger to save their child).
But I, too, think the focus SHOULD have been on Jake's. Which begs the question why Jake did leave his until last. This topped with leaving it till the day after was a VERY BAD call.
I don't think the writer did a good job at explaining how Jake, as a leader, stuffed up on his priority list. We know he went under AFTER his parents were taken, but not before that. I can't think of any reason why Jake would have opted for this, either than what you guys already stated about a plot device.
...I just didn't see him making a mistake like that in the series and it struck me as a plot facilitator, you know, to make sure he couldn't save Tom and his parents...
And, like you said, I think the idea works for the final arc overall and the character development also, but I just don't think the execution was properly thought out.


5) When they go to save Jake's family Jake is too late. His parents have both been made Controllers and Jake takes the risky move of morphing in front of them as a sort of 'in your face' moment. This scene is a turning point for Jake, because his purpose in the war (to save Tom) has been ripped from him. Do you think that Jake's reaction was appropriate? Do you think that this scene would have played out better if it were under Jake's narration?
...And this. It was done well in the total opposite way. At book one, everyone was fighting for a cause, but Jake was the only one who was and always has been fighting for a person, and that now he loses literally everything he had. And I love the morph: the message to his parents, the treat to his enemies-perfect reaction, perfect control, and I'm glad it was not in his point of view: I don't think he could give words that would give this moment more meaning, just knowing that this is what happens after all he's been through, it's a picture that needs no more than the description given.
I remember this WAS a memmorable moment. And possibly the most powerful moment in the book.



6) Anything else?

Oh my Gee, don't no one remember the creepy evil old lady Controller?!?!? That character was imprinted as an 'evil' enemy in my brain!
The seemingly-frail old nan Controller seemed to be some sort of high-rank and could pilot a helicopter!!!! I think she survived the explosion, too, if memory serves. Evidently the Anis' worse enemy in the story. ;D



What DID happen to Rachel's dad?! :facepalm:
It's things like this that let such a good story down in the long run.


...I want to point out that it was ghost written. Most of us, self included, have taken shots at ghost writers, giving a lot of blame out for some lesser quality stories in the series, and by no means do I seek to absolve anyone for that, I want to give credit where credit is due. This book has a lot of meaning to me and is one of the best books I know, in and out of the series , and whether or not is was handled by the credited author, and I'm glad for it...
You know what?!, I, too, feel like all I've been doing for the past few books is bagging them ghostwriters, so I am going to agree with RYTX and say this was the better ghostwritten one of the lot. I enjoyed it because it is flat out important book in the series overall. It managed to inject that feel of urgency and upping the stakes of this war. This was crucial at this stage of the series. So, I overlook the 'iffy' moments, and give it :thumbsup:!


PS: Oh man, the end of the next book left me soooooo  :mad: :facepalm:
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 05:07:10 AM by Gafrash »

Offline Kotetsu1442

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2010, 04:41:16 PM »
...I just didn't see him making a mistake like that in the series and it struck me as a plot facilitator, you know, to make sure he couldn't save Tom and his parents...
And, like you said, I think the idea works for the final arc overall and the character development also, but I just don't think the execution was properly thought out.
I agree here, that yes I can see that Jake's parents and Tom being in captivity works for the final arc, but the way it was the situation was executed to set that up in this book just wasn't plausibly done. It worked out the way it did only because it was necessary for the final story arc that it did, otherwise Jake as a character wouldn't have made the decisions as poorly as he did.

Likewise, I think that Loren's rescue was a plot device to set up the last battle/escape scene for this book. I even remember as they're getting ready to free her (after letting enough time pass to verify that she's not a Yeerk) they have her walk publicly to the park to meet them; at this point in reading it I thought to myself "Well, logically they would have the Chee use a hologram to help cover them up like they did freeing the other parents. They could have her walk up to a park bench, maybe along the edge of the forest; have a Chee project the image of her just sitting peacefully on the bench for half an hour or so while they all escape.... But I know they are not going to do that because that would be to easy and we haven't had a climax battle yet."
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2010, 07:06:13 PM »
Plot induced stupidity should pretty well explain this. The writers wanted things to be as bad as they could possibly get, which is why Jake played with the Idiot Ball in 49, and the Yeerks got the box near the end of 50.


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Offline SuperBlue

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2010, 09:27:45 PM »
Yeah but Yeerks getting the box actually helped the Anis win in future books
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2010, 09:31:27 PM »
It also caused problems and got Ax assimilated as well as part of the reason Rachel died.


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Offline SuperBlue

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Re: Group Re-Read: #49 The Diversion
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2010, 10:27:42 PM »
Well I don't like to think of that last book as canon anyway lol :P
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