Author Topic: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles  (Read 9452 times)

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Offline Terenia

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Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« on: May 30, 2010, 01:00:21 PM »
Okay, yeah. I suck, I suck, I suck. I know. I'm sorry! It's just been...so ridiculously insanely busy. I know, that's no excuse. I'm sorry! But I'm on summer break now! Or...I will be this upcoming Friday....so that means free time! Right?  *grovels for forgiveness* Rob, this is for you! :P

Summary
He is called the Ellimist. A being with the ability to alter space and time. A being with a power that will never be fully understood. He is the reason Elfangor came to Earth. He is the reason the Earth now has a fighting chance. And though his actions never seem quite right or wrong, you can be certain they are never, ever what anyone expects. This is the beginning and the middle of the story, A story that needs to be told in order to understand what might happen to the future. The future of the Animorphs. The future of humanity. The future of Earth.

He is called the Ellimist. And this is his story ...


Questions

1) The Ketran come from a world that is quite unique. It is a crystal based planet, with the actual ground pretty unliveable. The Ket actually live on crystals that they keep lifted in the air miles above the planet's ground. What do you think about this concept of a species? How could such a creature evolve?

2) The juvies on Ket especially are involved in a sort of gaming that parallels the game that the Ellimist will play against Crayak (it is also suspiciously similar to rpging, but that's besides the point). What do you think about the game and its rules of limited intrusion? Do you side with Ellimist, where less is more, or with Menno, who thinks that the players should be able to become direct players in the game?

3) What do you think about Father, and his existence? Why do you think he chose Ellimist, out of all his captives, to keep alive for the purpose of gaming?

4) Any speculation on Crayak's story?

5) The Ellimist spends a good deal of time with the Andalites, even going so far as to start a family with them. This begs a couple of questions. Firstly, what did you think of this view of prehistoric Andalite times? Secondly, what do you think about the Ellimist's involvement in their history?

6) Anything else?*


*Note: The reason that there aren't a lot of questions here isn't because there aren't many to ask. There's tons to ask. So many that I had a hard time knowing where to start. I'm eager to hear some of your opinions and questions, so I thought I'd only direct a few questions and leave the rest of the discussion open to you guys. :)

Next time: #48 The Return

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Offline anijen21

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 01:43:06 PM »
1) The Ketran come from a world that is quite unique. It is a crystal based planet, with the actual ground pretty unliveable. The Ket actually live on crystals that they keep lifted in the air miles above the planet's ground. What do you think about this concept of a species? How could such a creature evolve?
As cool as they were, and as interesting as it was to create such a unique planet/circumstance/evolution that was so difficult to replicate after their planet was destroyed, I kind of feel like the Ketran are on the same level as the Iskoort in like, narrative importance, you know? Like it was neat to see a new alien race developed, but I really really think we spent WAY too much time with them in this book. Crayak is not even introduced until the book is 3/4 over. I think that's a big problem.

2) The juvies on Ket especially are involved in a sort of gaming that parallels the game that the Ellimist will play against Crayak (it is also suspiciously similar to rpging, but that's besides the point). What do you think about the game and its rules of limited intrusion? Do you side with Ellimist, where less is more, or with Menno, who thinks that the players should be able to become direct players in the game?
lol see this is another thing...I kept having to ask myself as I was reading, post-apocalypse, "who the hell is Menno?" Menno had ONE LINE of dialogue, he was barely given ANY character development, and yet his *one-line philosophy* causes the greatest debate in Toomin's mind throughout the whole book. THIS BOOK WAS VERY UNBALANCED.

To answer the question though, I mean, idk, the Ellimist did less but we never really found out who won *the game* in the end, did we?

3) What do you think about Father, and his existence? Why do you think he chose Ellimist, out of all his captives, to keep alive for the purpose of gaming?
Father was an awesome concept, and creeiply, awesomely done, but that whole detail was the most glossed over and the most important. Why is Toomin the first alien in hundreds of thousands of years (probably longer) to survive the somewhat violent process of being infested or integrated or whatever by Father? Did Father choose him? Was it just dumb luck? Because no offense to Toomin, but I have trouble believing that he's SO INTERESTING that he intrigues Father enough to make him change his entire modus operandi, you know? You could argue Father was just lonely, and had just gotten to the point where he was desperate to try something new, even if it threatened him and killed him in the end, but if that's the case, I would have liked to hear a little more about it. Idk, this book introduces so many weird elements without explaining them fully. I'm still not totally sure what a Ket is supposed to look like.

4) Any speculation on Crayak's story?
Not really, but again, I feel like his motivation and backstory were kind of important details that got lost in the shuffle. Like he just wanted death? He just wanted to kill everything? I mean, in a way, the oversimplification is kind of cool and scary, like the Joker from The Dark Knight, but idk in this book he just came off kind of Saturday-morning-cartoon "I'LL KILL YOU ALL FOOLS" hokey to me. Though the distinction good=order and evil=chaos is one of the cooler ones imho.

5) The Ellimist spends a good deal of time with the Andalites, even going so far as to start a family with them. This begs a couple of questions. Firstly, what did you think of this view of prehistoric Andalite times? Secondly, what do you think about the Ellimist's involvement in their history?
This was my favorite part of the book, and top five favorite chapters in the entire series. First, I think pre-historic Andalites made total sense. Like I can see how every detail she gave us led them to being the species/hardasses they are today. I mean, I know we've been told that they were prey before, but I like how it was just so hopeless and helpless before the Ellimist came along. I love that he settled down and just got to LIVE for a lifetime, I love that his involvement with an immature, barely sentient race gave him the inspiration to fight Crayak, idk. I just really loved that chapter.

6) Anything else?*
Still want to know what a Ket is supposed to look like.

Still want to know Crayak's whole backstory, I mean, not even WHY he wants everything dead but WHY he came to our galaxy, why he fixated on the Ellimist, if there are any other powers out there greater or similar to them...

One thing I really liked about this book was all the one-off alien species. I just feel like Applegrant are so creative and economical with their writing that you can figure out bits of how these aliens work just by their names. The Generationals, for instance. It's like the species changes every time the generation moves, like each generation is its own species, and I love that. I love the two races that were fighting when the Ellimist got involved for the first time, I can't remember what they were called. I think one of them started with a J. And I love love ABSOLUTELY LOVE that the Skrit Na were space-faring that far back in history. I love how even all these easily replacable background players in the series have distinct, well-developed personalities of their own even if they don't matter at all.
I go off topic on purpose.

Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 02:09:22 PM »
Oh, yeah, the Skrit Na bit is a question I meant to put in and forgot. If the Skrit Na are space faring millions of years before the Andalites, what does that say about them? I mean, they're kind of regarded as silly galactic kleptomaniacs in TAC, but the fact that they've been around so long makes me wonder about their evolution. Do they even have a homeworld at this point? Or are they nomadic, claiming a moon here, a planet there, and just using them as giant junk shops? It's a really cool detail, imo.

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2010, 12:39:26 PM »
Okay, yeah. I suck, I suck, I suck. I know. I'm sorry! It's just been...so ridiculously insanely busy. I know, that's no excuse. I'm sorry! But I'm on summer break now! Or...I will be this upcoming Friday....so that means free time! Right?  *grovels for forgiveness* Rob, this is for you! :P
Seriously, what's up with that? Priorities! Why would you want to fulfill your real life obligations when you could be here, talking to me!  ;D

Haha. Now worries. Life happens.

1) The Ketran come from a world that is quite unique. It is a crystal based planet, with the actual ground pretty unliveable. The Ket actually live on crystals that they keep lifted in the air miles above the planet's ground. What do you think about this concept of a species? How could such a creature evolve?
Jen, you're so critical ;) I love the concept of Ket and Ketrans. It is undeniably one of the most memorable images of the entire series, and the concept of a society like theirs just has a very alien feel.

As for their evolution... that seems less likely. I mean, yes, if an environment of crystals floating hundreds of miles above the surface of a molten planet could exist, then the crystals would seem a likely place for life to evolve, but the environment itself, one of lighter-than-air crystals and a planet that refuses to cool... may be possible if the lower atmosphere consisted of some very dense, very well-insulating gasses, I guess. I don't know. Now I want to go buy a planet and see if I can't get this effect...

2) The juvies on Ket especially are involved in a sort of gaming that parallels the game that the Ellimist will play against Crayak (it is also suspiciously similar to rpging, but that's besides the point). What do you think about the game and its rules of limited intrusion? Do you side with Ellimist, where less is more, or with Menno, who thinks that the players should be able to become direct players in the game?
The game-playing aspect of this book always felt a little silly to me. It's pretty obviously a character trait of the Ellimist's designed after his character was already in place. "Oh, well... he likes playing games, right? Why not just make it so that he always played games?" Aside from the concept itself, I thought that game sounded very interesting. I'd play it. As a casual gamer myself, my instinct would be to agree with Menno (he had more than one line, didn't he?), but honestly, I find the concept of just being able to make a subtle change and watch it trickle down very alluring. I think I'd have to back Toomin overall, though their gamer culture would probably benefit from having more than one game ::)

3) What do you think about Father, and his existence? Why do you think he chose Ellimist, out of all his captives, to keep alive for the purpose of gaming?
Man, Father was crazy cool. Again, I'm not sure of the plausibility, but there's a point where plausible must be sacrificed for awesome. The giant, planet-sized brain-sponge develops a (somewhat douchey) personality... I got the impression that Toomin was the only one to every survive his "infestation" process, though I guess, Like Jen said, it could just be that Father got bored and needed someone alive. Either way, it seems as thought Toomin was just disgustingly lucky (or unlucky, I guess).

4) Any speculation on Crayak's story?
Um... yes and no... we're really given next to nothing about Crayak over the course of the story, so it'd be interesting to know more, but I really don't feel it's necessary. Considering the fact that, outside of this book, the Ellimist and Crayak are nothing more than plot devices, I'm not really that concerned with them (or other beings like them). Godlike creatures might be cool, but they're not very interesting in my opinion. That's why I'm glad the Ellimist in this book is an actual character.

5) The Ellimist spends a good deal of time with the Andalites, even going so far as to start a family with them. This begs a couple of questions. Firstly, what did you think of this view of prehistoric Andalite times? Secondly, what do you think about the Ellimist's involvement in their history?
You know, everybody seems to be under the impression that this was one of the turning points in Andalite history. I dunno, I guess I never really got that impression. The Andalites would have gotten on okay with or without the Ellimist. I loved that it was a turning point in his existence, though. He got more from this primitive race than he gave them, with all his knowledge and power, and that's a kind of postive irony that I really appreciate.

6) Anything else?*
Oh... yes, definitely. A thousand times yes. I think I'm sort of suffering from the same thing you are, where there's really too much here to go into. I like how this book is set in the Animorphs universe, but it's far enough back in time, and with enough different players, that it's anything but the familiar Animorphs universe we've gotten to know. Sort of echoing Jen's comment on the one-off aliens there, I guess. This book, more than any of the others in the series, gives me the impression of a rich, dynamic history for the Aniverse, outside of just the Yeerk/Andalite conflict.

Oh, yeah, the Skrit Na bit is a question I meant to put in and forgot. If the Skrit Na are space faring millions of years before the Andalites, what does that say about them? I mean, they're kind of regarded as silly galactic kleptomaniacs in TAC, but the fact that they've been around so long makes me wonder about their evolution. Do they even have a homeworld at this point? Or are they nomadic, claiming a moon here, a planet there, and just using them as giant junk shops? It's a really cool detail, imo.
They really are an intriguing race, aren't they? I kind of get the impression that they might be entirely space-faring, actually, just living out of their little junk-peddling spacecraft. They seem fairly content with their niche, don't they? I don't think many species would be able to maintain their position for millions of years.

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Offline AniDragon

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 07:38:47 PM »
Glee! Ellimist Chronicles! XD Probably one of my favourite Ani-books.

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2) The juvies on Ket especially are involved in a sort of gaming that parallels the game that the Ellimist will play against Crayak (it is also suspiciously similar to rpging, but that's besides the point). What do you think about the game and its rules of limited intrusion? Do you side with Ellimist, where less is more, or with Menno, who thinks that the players should be able to become direct players in the game?

Being the big negociator that I am, I think they should have both systems available. Like how in WoW, they have both PvE servers AND PvP servers, because not everyone likes both. So yeah, just have different types of servers for different types of players. That way, you can play either way, without other players complaining that "Menno played differently, that's why he won! I would have won had I known we were intruding!", etc.

Quote
3) What do you think about Father, and his existence? Why do you think he chose Ellimist, out of all his captives, to keep alive for the purpose of gaming?

I tend to agree that Father was getting lonely, and picked a random person to play games against. Maybe he saw that Ellimist was a gamer, when he "infested" him or whatever, and decided then that hey, if he's going to be keeping anyone alive, might as well be someone he could play games with.

Quote
5) The Ellimist spends a good deal of time with the Andalites, even going so far as to start a family with them. This begs a couple of questions. Firstly, what did you think of this view of prehistoric Andalite times? Secondly, what do you think about the Ellimist's involvement in their history?

That was a really interesting part. I don't know how it effected Andalite history, since it seems like the Ellimist learned more from the Andalites that the Andalites ever learned from the Ellimist. But still, I love the lesson he learned. So simple, yet so potent. "More children. Some live."

Quote
6) Anything else?*

So we learned in this book that the Ellimist actually created the Pemalites, which of course explained why Crayak wanted them gone. I've always kinda wondered if the Pemalites maybe worshiped the Ellimist as a sort of deity. Also: The Ellimist named both the Pemalites and the Andalites. Explains why their names are so similar. XD

One thing that disapoins me is that we never learn what the Time Matrix is. Every time I reread this book, I think "Oh, maybe it's one of the parts of the Ellimist's body that got left behind", but then I read the part where Crayak destroys them all and go "Oh". So yeah. That's one thing I would have liked to have been touched on that wasn't.

But yeah, loooove this book. Love that the Ellimist and Crayak and heck even Father started out as gamers.

And I'm totally writing a fanfic about the Generationals. Just saying. It's taking forever though, since their hinted at having a hive-mind, and DAMN that's hard to write.
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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2010, 06:40:27 PM »
Trust me teach, I sympathize. Actually, maybe I don't: I've been nausatingly busy all week, I've had nightmares, I'm not sure I accept your pleas of being "busy"
but now it's over and I can finally do this.
And I do forgive you. I like the groveling. Kept it up


1)Man I remember the first time I read this and had no idea what the hell was happening. And really, I still don't. I don't do physics, I don't know what it would take to get these things in the air (plus I really still have no concept of wtf a ketran looks like and can handle) I do find it interesting though: environment dependence is one thing, but this was more like symbiosis which seems really hard to pull of with your environment: Which came first, the Ketran or the crystal? Hard to know how it works without knowing that
2) I really don't see the reason you can't do both; I see it as preference, sometimes you may want do the most with the least, other times it's fun to just go in and rip the whole thing apart; really depends on mood
3) Agree with all of the above about father, pretty neat, could have done more. Personally, I've often thought that he didn't choose Toomin, just got him: It maybe that he's the only one that's ever survived a landing there: we are never told if the sources of his new games are kept alive only long enough for him to take something, or if he was able to make some sort of half character from corpses: which I thought he seemed to do to an extent. Others why not keep a few more? idk
4)No and I'm PISSED! I don't do origin stories, between this and 26 we get just enough to say okay, wtf is this dude, but never get it and it enrages me! It may be for the best, but I thought Crayak's story could be something, really like what I'd have hoped for the Ellimist story. (more on that in a bit)
5) Agree with Prime on this one, I didn't really see him giving them jack. I won't even credit him for thought speak.
It does beg something about Andalite "anthro?"pology though? In MM2 Ax say's that is home planet is caught b/w to stars or something at the time of the KT extinction. Here we are, probably only a few centuries/ millenia before that and that doesn't seem to be the case.
Plus, idk if it's said, but these andalites seem like they could whip up a fire; and the pemalites didn't exist till post visit. This aliens need to start cross checking there histories  ::)

6)I'm shocked by the love. This book breaks my heart, and it is even said why; I can't quote it exactly, but to the effect of "you were a kid, like us, that got in over his head"
Fine. But that's what happened to EVERYONE! Animorphs, Ax, Elfangor, Dak, Aldrea, and now the Ellimist. All our heroes from this series basically just got stuck in it and couldn't get out. Some of them (Elfangor, Aldrea, maybe Ax) may have wanted the chance to make something of themselves, but for all of them, they begin as more or children in their society and just get caught in a whirlwind of things. Honestly, Edriss seems to me the only one that had a plan and executed it, everyone else was just a lost child in a sick game.
And I hate this for the ellimist, because for 40 plus books, he's basically the god of good in this series, and that it happened by accident I can live with, but that everything happened to everyone in this way, it disappoints me personally.
And that is why I think it may be best that we never got Crayaks story.
I'd bash my head in if he was just a troubled child that kept making a mess across galaxies.

It confused the hell out me for so long, and then I got it and, it's very familar, just on a bigger scale, so I reflect on it and I feel wanting, that's all.
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Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 09:32:46 AM »
Hey Terenia, don’t feel too bad. This was a tough one, me thinks.
RYTX, THANK YOU, FINALLY I don't feel alone regarding my feelings on this Chronicles. I don't remember liking this read and I recall some of the narrative was just a bit hard to grasp. I was going bonkers with everyone's praises of what we were given in this book.

I had assumed we were procrastinating this book because it would be challenging to come up with decent questions. The Ellimist Chronicles is simply too abstract (not to call it boring) and doesn’t deliver, in my opinion.
But I am going to agree on what Kit Optimist Prime there said. It does establish a background far enough back in the Aniverse that can still be related to the series. The Andalite Chronicles and the Hork-Bajir Chronicles also did that, but were more directly linked to our Earth situation than the Ellimist's story.

Having said that, it’s worth reading merely because of its prologue and epilogue, with the eerie sneak peak into the premise that an Animorph will die. KA did it so we really didn’t know who it could be and I think this was quite nicely done.

It would be interesting to know: who did you guys initially assume it was going to be?
When I first read this book I was trying to read it as each individual character would, and I remember to come down to Tobias. By the end of #53, we ALL knew who it was going to be. But, especially considering the character who was set to die, I ALWAYS held on to the hope that there would be that unsuspecting way-out twist, and that if anyone would get it, it would be Rachel, you know.


2. This was in tune with the underlying theme of the series of youthful/childhood’s end kind of thing.


3. The only point I'd like to insert here is the curious juxtapositions that can be made with the Remnant's series' Mother.


4. See, throughout the ENTIRE book, I was eager on this ultimate meeting between the Ellimist and the Cryak. When it DID happen, I was glad, BUT, there wasn’t much material was there?!
He was just plain evil and a player, much like the Ellimist. And there were only hints that the Ellimist could sense 'creatures' living inside the planetoid, beyond that it's anyone's guess.


5. I second Anijen, here. Possibly the more interesting reads can be found AFTER he gets all powerful and sets out through space to do Good. Him finding himself in prehistoric Andalite days was an unforeseen development. It’s also in consistency with Ax’s hints of the Andalite’s slight superstitious nature, stated earlier in the series. We get to know that the Ellimist DID participate in the history of the species, and as such supernatural guimmicks were attributed to him/them.
I like this one almost as much as the one development with the Pemalite. The fact that the Ellimist created them was a nice tie in and made sense.

6.
There were just so many loose danglers that could have been addressed here.
As AniDragon said,
The Skrit Na, the TimeMatrix (where the heck did it go?!), ;
But mostly, there was no extras on the Ellimist X Cryak’s overall game, involving the fate of Earth with the Andalite X Yeerks (eg1: What kinds of things the Ellimist DID pull to play ‘outside of the square’ per si)(eg2:the deal currently staged in the Anati System?! I’m really peeved that we got nothing for that…)(eg3: The Cassie, sub-temporarily grounded guimmick)(the list goes on...);



Post Merged: June 07, 2010, 09:34:43 AM
Speaking of books that don't deliver... Don't want to say any names but...#The Return... cough cough! Jeez!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 07:26:06 PM by Gafrash »

Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 08:00:30 PM »
I remember thinking there was no way she'd pull something like that so late in the series. That it must be something like the Ani talking to the Ellemist on his/her death bed. I don't know who I thought it might be. Tobias because he's the woobie and has had a bad life? Jake because he's the leader and had to make a heroic sacrifice? Or Rachel because she finally bit off more than she could chew?


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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 08:13:58 PM »
I'm not sure why, but I knew from the onset that it was Rachel. I think part of it merely had to do with the fact that the book released alongside TEC was a Rachel book and, as we'll discuss with The Return, her character really has expended its usefulness. She has done all she can do, has been all she can be and the only reasonable thing to do with her now, from a writer's perspective, is sacrifice her.

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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 08:35:32 PM »
That's rather dark and sad. Doesn't make much sense to me either. Though I guess we can discuss that in the future thread.


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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 08:38:04 PM »
That's rather dark and sad. Doesn't make much sense to me either. Though I guess we can discuss that in the future thread.

I'll be sure to include a question about it on the next re-read. Wouldn't want to exhaust the topic too much here. But I will say (since I don't participate in the actual discussions much anyhow) that while it is dark and a bit depressing writer's only want to create the best story, whether the fans agree that it's the best or not. Sometimes that requires sacrifice. :) I'll stop now.

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Offline Kotetsu1442

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2010, 04:53:32 PM »
Questions

Quote
1) The Ketran come from a world that is quite unique. It is a crystal based planet, with the actual ground pretty unliveable. The Ket actually live on crystals that they keep lifted in the air miles above the planet's ground. What do you think about this concept of a species? How could such a creature evolve?

Well, the crystals themselves are kinda contradictory. it is certainly possible for a planets to have such a thickly-gaseous atmosphere that solid objects with structures that provide internal buoyancy can have sufficently low density to float in particular levels of the atmosphere, but if that was the case then the crystal's increase in growth over time would not cause them to increase overall density and have "internal buoyancy and atmospheric pressure loose the battle to gravity"... unless some aspect of the crystal's growth involves the continued growth of the crystal in the higher part atmosphere to be a finer, more dense crystal structure... but that still wouldn't result in crashing down to the planet surface, it would gradually lower, form less dense crystal growth, gradually rise and form more dense crystal growth and so on until a homeostasis is reached. To be more scientifically plausible, the crystals would need to have originally grown from the atmosphere just at the surface and have been brought to the skies by the Ket, with the crystals depending solely on the Ket for lift.

As for the Ket themselves, if living creatures existed in the "less sulfurous seas" and perhaps occasional land masses, then flight capable creatures could have certainly evolved from them. There aren't any details on the Ket eating habits, but if some type of small insects or small flighted creatures existed just above the surface of the seas, and the Ket evolved from some sort of fish that originally jumped to reach them, then jumped with more controlled direction and glided descents (flying fish) into eventually true winged creatures, then gaining the ability to fly and perch on floating objects could give the the evolutionary benefits of closer access to prey and removing themselves from potential sea predators.

Having family structures that are surprisingly human (with paired parents that with individual children who have left home at some point in maturity to start their own family, then the parents bug the children to return and visit) rather than herd or pack types of families makes the cooperative nature of the larger societies to create flying homes seem unlikely but then again, individualizing our families is a relatively recent aspect of human history, and the tiny 'nuclear families' more of a modern American thing, humans developed from tribal 'clan' types of extended families, so Kets could have done the same and grown to their large crystal societies with smaller families within.

On the whole, I feel that Kets are quite plausible as far as the provided details go.



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2) The juvies on Ket especially are involved in a sort of gaming that parallels the game that the Ellimist will play against Crayak (it is also suspiciously similar to rpging, but that's besides the point). What do you think about the game and its rules of limited intrusion? Do you side with Ellimist, where less is more, or with Menno, who thinks that the players should be able to become direct players in the game?

I would argue that the Ket society's gaming being similar to Earth's youth/young adult gaming culture isn't beside the point, but is exactly the point, this story isn't so much about the Ellimist as we know him and the game he's now playing (to the disappointment of some readers) but is about an origin that is completely different than the current conflict though it eventually leads to it; it gives us a very relatable frame of reference to character Toomin long before he became the Ellimist we know. (Which is itself a good thing, though I would have preferred this story and this character as a completely independent work of sci-fi with the same story but not necessarily tied into the Ani-verse; and the Ellimist remaining as awesome and mysterious as an outside, godlike 'non-interferer' that interferes indirectly taking his cues from Q.

To answer the question itself: Different strokes for different folks, the society could just develop and play multiple different games (it sounded like different games were released over time, and the 'Alien Civilizations' game just happened to be the current big thing; probably inspired loosely by Star-craft, Warcraft II and other competitive strategy games as well as 'civilization sims' of the '90s), or along AniDragon's thoughts have the single game engine develop into two different 'servers' with separate rule sets, something that may have developed overtime along with a Ketran-wide-uninet had they had time to develop it.



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3) What do you think about Father, and his existence? Why do you think he chose Ellimist, out of all his captives, to keep alive for the purpose of gaming?

As I (and apparently some others) understood it, the Toomin/Ellimist just happened to be the only one of the thousands to crash onto that moon to survive long enough for Father to infest, just another one of the Ani-verse's extremely unlikely coincidences that require you to suspend your disbelief in the unlikely and accept it at face value.



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4) Any speculation on Crayak's story?

Nope, I'm happy with the general outline provided in the main series: an exiled criminal from another galaxy who is "a perfectionist, in his own way." I'm content enough to not know the details of why he is an exiled criminal other than assuming that there are many similarly powerful beings in said galaxy but that he is a criminal due to his desire for domination and disregard of value for life. He's power-hungry nature causes him to not just wipe out all other life in our galaxy (leading to him being all powerful, but over a very boring galaxy) but to rule all life; and since it is easier to rule one powerful cohesive race than a great many diverse races then an ongoing game of "you wipe-out everything you can find less powerful than you until something more powerful comes along and wipes you out" until "There can be only one" is his method of entertainment. Of course, his initial 'games' with the Ellimist weren't pursuing this, they were just little games of him vs. Ellimist, so he must have developed his goals during the thousands of years between encounters with Ellimist.



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5) The Ellimist spends a good deal of time with the Andalites, even going so far as to start a family with them. This begs a couple of questions. Firstly, what did you think of this view of prehistoric Andalite times? Secondly, what do you think about the Ellimist's involvement in their history?
I'm with some of the others here too, I loved that he learned something very valuable from his time with the primitive society in a 'from the mouths of babes' sort of way, and it was neat to see an early version of Andalite adaptation, but I really don't think that he had any meaningful involvement in their history other than giving them a legend/fairy tale.



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6) Anything else?*

(plus I really still have no concept of wtf a ketran looks like and can handle)

I don't know, I thought it was clear enough reading it. Not right from the beginning, but in the gradual clues you can piece together. They are perching and flying and seem vaguely avian from the beginning, though with quills on their hair and the top of their wings, so maybe more webbed wings that don't depend feathers for control. At this point, picture it as any combination of flighted reptilian/mammalian that you want (I tend to picture it being more Pterosaur like in general shape). Then for details, fit in the 2-4-4-2 description provided: 2 arms (with some form of hands, all in all relatively week and frail with possibly hollow bones to keep the weight down in a flighted creature), 4 eyes (very bright and colorful eyes it sounds like, I thought the magenta eyes sounded kinda cool), 4 wings and 2 legs/feet. The feet must be somewhat similar to bird-shaped legs and feet since they could perch on them, but since they were simply called 'pods' instead of talons, then I imagine they were more fleshy feet with internal bones rather than claw-like. Since the females could release and spray/spread hormones out behind them, I imagine that the source is some sort of gland in a genitalia-region at the meeting of the legs similar to Earth related creatures. All though, I have heard some describe them as being mostly angelic-shaped, so maybe the image I have is based way too much on my interpretation and the description was more vague than I remembered it to be.


On a side note, I thought it was really fun in that early part piecing together the details of their species and their planet in parallel with hearing expressions like "Deep Worms" and "Go surface for all I care" and "Four globes, no clouds" and figuring out the meanings and possible origins to the expressions in a completely foreign culture based on where they come from.



RYTX and Gafrash:
I don't mean to single you out as a way to tell you you shouldn't be allowed to criticize TEC, because you certainly should, but I'd like to ask you more about your views simply because they are the most different from mine. Could you explain what you mean about it being 'too abstract,' what was abstract about it? What parts did the settings really require you to understand the physics to know what was happening? I guess I just don't see what is 'difficult to grasp' in a way that is abnormal in the Animorphs series, could you clarify some of the issues/problems you are talking about?


BTW, my answer to my assumption on who was going to die at this point was Tobias, but it was really nothing more than a guess based on nothing specific.
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Offline RYTX

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2010, 07:05:59 PM »
hmm, alright I'll try
Again I did not care for the Ketran description broken about as it was-seriously the last time I read it I took notes on all these different parts, but couldn't cleanly see the way in which they came together-personally I'm not entirely clear that the docking talons and the pods are the same organ. I go through it and get a jumble of parts that don't fit together in any viewable organism to me
and that just remains so to this day. Most of the aliens we meet we have (numerous) fairly detailed descriptions of, but the one here is fragmented and incomplete as far as I'm concerned

My other conceptal block about the crystals and the kets, well, actually I think I like your take on it: I don't bother or care to develop the mechanics of a situation, so the first time I read this some 8 years ago I was deeply confused about a well, alien world and I couldn't understand it, plain and simple. Now adays I get what is happening on, but don't know why and again frankly don't bother to know, so I don't see how it could be. (look at that, 3/6 question words from first grade) so if it comes up in conversation like here it's just gonna be one of those things I don't get.

So i think that's about it for my part-I've never grasped those aspects of the story particularly well. imo the beginning totally jumps around and then, well I've made my points on what the big let down of this book was for me.
So, there you have it, hope that explains something
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Offline Kotetsu1442

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 12:40:56 AM »
It's definitely true that usually when an alien character enters the story in the Animorph books we usually get a general idea of their complete description all at once. Usually this is because we are seeing it from the perspective of one specie describing a new specie (The main characters describe the aliens they come across or re-introduce as if describing them to someone who has never seen them before, or even in the chronicles one specie comes across one new to it and sizes it up). In this one, we were seeing from the perspective of a Ket, and he spoke as though whomever he was speaking to was already familiar with Ket anatomy and the basics of their lifestyle, a Generational reading his story (first life) wouldn't need to have a Ket or their crystalline homes described, but wouldn't necessarily know the details of the political debates of using engines or continuing to only use wing lift to fly them. In the same manner, when you read a realistic fiction, you might be told about a character running and kicking the ball, but the author doesn't stop to tell you about that humans are two footed and then describe the feet and legs.

Even though I'm pretty sure this technique... I don't know what to call it, it's kinda like In medias res except that it just drops you into the setting, not the action... is there as an attempt to 'immerse' the reader into Ket society, I can certainly understand your criticism that it makes it harder to enjoy the narrative when you are trying to picture a scene with the characters preforming actions with only the vaguest notions of what the characters look like, then getting more details and having to fill in the past scenes in your mind retroactively. (I am not an official source or anything, but I will say with a fair amount of certainty that the 'pods' mentioned are the very feet they land with; if there was anything to indicate that both their males and females produced egg-sacs that they carried around with them, then it could be that; but pod can also be a prefix or suffix to mean feet, so like I said it's a vague enough word to mean feet and you learn from the story that they can grip with it enough to perch, while the word talon would also mean that it is clawed.)



As far as the book 'failing to deliver,' I enjoyed it very much and thought it was quite worthwhile, but I understand that if you want to learn more about the Ellimist/Crayak game then this would be disappointing as it tells its own entire story, touches on a few points relevant to the present day Ani-verse, then sets up the game; but doesn't actually know anything about the game itself and provide context to the Ani's role in it. I will agree that one thing that could have added to the story to me was seeing a little more of the game being played, each making a few minimalistic moves and seeing them play out in subtle but meaningful ways over generations to get to see some of it really play out as a elaborate battle of wits where two supremely powerful beings are both doing almost nothing.
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Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2010, 05:31:20 AM »
I'm gonna go on memory here and state that some scenes were just a bit hard to grasp in the narration.
The description of the Ketrans and their crystaline homeworld, the scene with Father, the random names of the random alien species... sometimes even the LACK OF description let me down... there was a massive missed opportunity with the pre-historic Andalite homeworld the Ellimist walked on.
They were all 'new' things added to the 'Aniverse', yes, but I felt unnattracted to it given that I couldn't really grasp it. I consider myself a visual kinda guy, so if it doesn't create a cohesive 'picture' inside my little limitted brain, you won't have my attention for long...

...I'm not entirely clear that the docking talons and the pods are the same organ. I go through it and get a jumble of parts that don't fit together in any viewable organism to me...Most of the aliens we meet we have (numerous) fairly detailed descriptions of, but the one here is fragmented and incomplete as far as I'm concerned...I couldn't understand it, plain and simple. Now adays I get what is happening on, but don't know why and again frankly don't bother to know... the beginning totally jumps around and then, well I've made my points on what the big let down of this book was for me...
Gotta back you up here, RYTX, since you've virtually nailed the things I am referring to and am trying to say.
Despite its highlights, I didn't really ENJOY these Chronicles as much as I expected to, and therefore it's hard to care about 'understanding' it. I am content with the gist of it.

It's not even about physics or the works, to me. It's just about the reading as an experience. I am content that you, Kotetsu1442, found the entertainment in the read and made the links, in your undeniably intelligent and thorough head, but getting a new story, that was waaaaaaaay before the Andalite X Yeerk war, that doesn't really leave us any wiser in the bigger schemes of the Ellimist X Cryak 'game', at THIS stage in the series, was, really, empty fulfilment to me, as a fan and as a reader. Excuse my sincerity.


Offline Kotetsu1442

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2010, 04:50:46 PM »
...but getting a new story, that was waaaaaaaay before the Andalite X Yeerk war, that doesn't really leave us any wiser in the bigger schemes of the Ellimist X Cryak 'game', at THIS stage in the series, was, really, empty fulfilment to me, as a fan and as a reader. Excuse my sincerity.
Oh, well your sincerity is certainly more than excused, it is quite appreciated; the only reason I asked in the first place is because I like to see things from others' views as well as explaining mine. And this reasoning here is particularly clear to me now, I actually started a thread where I asked if others thought it was a good thing or not when an author decides to write their own "The Ill-Advised Curiosity" of their novels, using the Civil War side-story of #47 as an example. In essence, that would be the main problem I would say that I have with TEC as well.
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Offline TheEllimist

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2011, 12:45:53 AM »
It has been years since I've read this book, so the details are lost to me, but there is one big theme which stuck out to me greater than any other in the series. I thought this book highlighted the symbolism of the Ellimist and Crayak being like God and Satan.
Firstly, the physical body of the Ellimist is described much like angels from Revelations in the Christian Bible.
When the Ellimist goes and lives as an Andilite, he is the Andilite; which goes along with the idea of Jesus being God. The Andilite goes off alone to report back to the Ellimist as he lives his life, much like Jesus's rhythms of going to places away from people to pray. The Ellimist even impregnates one of the females and they are all surprised that she gave birth without doing "it."
Later in the book as the Ellimist and Crayak are battling, the Ellimist is at a point where he is in 3 dimensions of reality, Zero-Space, Real Space, and the bottom of a Black Hole. This is likely a reference to the Christian concept of God being a trinity.

The very attitude taken by the two characters is taken straight from some peoples concepts of who God is and what he is like and who Satan is and what he is like.
Many people see God as a being who is omnipotent and omnipresent, but doesn't act. Taking a-make-the-smallest-move-possible role to attain the desired out come.   
Crayak on the other hand has one goal, be better than the Ellimist and defeat the Ellimist. Oh yeah, and destroy worlds. This character is right in line with many perceptions of the character of the Devil. He is more willing to take an active role; a direct approach, but he is limited by the Ellimist (their agreement to rules).

This whole set up points to idea that: in Animorphs world, the Ellimist is mistaken for God and Crayak for Satan.

Are there other ways you see symbolism in The Ellimist?
Do you agree? Disagree?
Why?

Offline Nar Klawip

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2011, 01:05:01 AM »
Sorry TheEllimist but you totally reminded me of this!

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/animorphs.htm
"When life gives you lemons you make lemonade. When a dying Andalite Prince gives you the morphing power? Well then you make miracles." ~Me

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Offline RYTX

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2011, 10:43:37 AM »
I agree that the Ellimist and Crayak came off as not too subtle allusions to a god of good and evil dynamic but I do query:
Where are you getting that they did not do "it" in siring his Andalite spawn? I see no reason to believe they didn't mate in a typical-and probably freaky-deaky-Andalite fashion.

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/animorphs.htm
So it's Animorphs fault I'm a soulless heathen
Good to know
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2011, 12:28:33 PM »
I'm pretty sure they did it, and no one was surprised about the birth.

I dislike that they made Crayak two dimensional in this book. I was under the impression from 26 that he wants to make the perfect species that dominates the galaxy. Not just destroy all life for the Evulz.


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Offline TheEllimist

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2011, 05:05:19 PM »
I thought that the Ellimist had impregnated the Andalite female in some unusual way, I suppose I remembered wrong.

Anyway, I feel like the article posted was written by someone who is a little paranoid. I doubt that KA intended to instill anti-christian ideas in children's heads.

I have a feeling she was drawing on large and popular themes to make her story more appealing.
The same goes with the theme of "some kid gets thrown into a situation and tries to figure the best way to work through it." It appeals to the audience of regular kids who are reading the books. They can imagine who the main characters are better because the reader can fill in the blanks and spaces with details of him/herself.

Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2011, 05:23:31 PM »
KA has specifically said that she did not try to infuse religion into Animorphs, but it's hard to ignore the blatant God/devil symbology here. I suppose a more secular view would merely be "ultimate good" versus "ultimate evil", which is a theme present in most religions and in atheism and agnosticism. There are quite a few intersting parallels, though.

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Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 01:12:39 AM »
But seriously, what were everyone's good moments in this book?
I was just looking forward to the Ellimist X Cryak meetup/showdown the entire time, and to get what we got, was a bit of a let down.

Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 01:24:06 AM »
I liked reading about him trying to help people. Basically playing a real version of his game. I liked reading about his backstory, though it seemed a bit over done. Too similar to other backstories, if you know what I mean.

I expected some background on Crayak, and some mention of the Time Matrix. Maybe some mention of the Yeerks and such. Some details about their current game concerning the Andalite/Yeerk war.


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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 07:00:12 AM »
I enjoyed how directly this book related to role-playing, since when it came out I was so fully immersed into the Animorphs RPG world via AOL. I loved that Ellimist's character tried so hard and couldn't get anything right. What was it he was called? A "heroic loser" or something like that? Yet through it all he didn't lose his basic drive to do good. I found that impressive.

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Offline Baranth

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 05:27:57 PM »
I have a question to pose.

Why does it seem like the entire plot of this book is nearly the same as what happens throughout the Remnants series?
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Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2011, 03:47:43 AM »
Is anyone able to list any of the numerous new races/species that are stated throughout sections of the book?

Conversely, a random question: was there any winks and nods to The Five here in the Ellimist Chronicles?!

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Ellimist Chronicles
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 03:38:48 PM »
There was a race called the 333.

Gotta give KA this, the Ellimist Chronicles made me feel like I was truly an alien world. It wasn't like Hork-Bajir or TAC. It's like, I knew they were Andalites and Hork-Bajir, but I still felt like those planets made sense to me. Even the hybrid world created by the Time Matrix was something familiar.

But the Ellimist lived in a place and time that really made me feel like I was no where that could even come close to being like somewhere I have been. (Except for the entire cultural MMORPG thing, but besides that)