Author Topic: Can They Exist?  (Read 4220 times)

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Offline Terenia

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Can They Exist?
« on: December 21, 2009, 07:39:06 PM »
Most everyone here, with maybe a few exceptions, does believe in the existence of aliens. Or at least in the possibility of the existence of aliens. Over the years, many different concepts of 'alien' have come into existence. There's the typical E.T. or Close Encounter's type of alien, the putty-faced Star Trek aliens, the fuzzy Chewbaca's...and of course the aliens introduced in Animorphs. Yeerks. Hork-Bajir. Taxxons. Andalites. Skrit Na. Leerans. A plethora of others...

What I find myself wondering is whether or not, with a galaxy as large as it is and a universe with so many galaxies within it, alien species such as those in Animorphs could exist. Is it even possible for a parasite with sentience to exist and to control other beings in the way Yeerks do? Does it make sense, evolutionarily speaking, for a race to develop with centaur-like features that eat through their hooves? What about Taxxons, who are so fragile that they make up for it in sheer size and number? Or Leeran's? Can amphibious telepath's truly exist?

I am, of course, most interested in the Andalite and Yeerk development, and the Yeerks most of all. So, what do you think? Pick your favorite species...could they actually exist, somewhere out there? Do you think that they would have similar lifestyles and instincts to that portrayed in the series? For example, does it make sense that the Taxxons are a hive species? Does it make sense that Yeerks felt such a desire for conquest? Was that desire a result of instinct or politics?

I know it's a lot of questions, a large amount of stuff to consider, but I'd be interested in hearing what everyone thinks.

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Offline RYTX

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 08:46:12 PM »
*whistle* Okay, but for I start let me lay out my ground plan here. The creation of the universe is random, the development of life even more random, and the evolution of true sentience incredibly more random: no creators, no original designer. Each of these events has an infinitesimally small chance of happening, each even more so than the last. All of it is statistically impossible, including and especially us.

That being said, no. The odds of them existing as KA describes are beyond numerical comprehension. However, hope springs eternal  ;)
Now from a biological stand point, which has no regards for me or my math, each species may have something to it. So here's my break down of some of them

Taxxons: Maybe. Large numbers make sense if you are killed pretty readily, especially by your own kind, and I can also see the hunger thing develop. The body is iffy to me however. It seems like they have an exoskeleton, and that type of body plan is hard to come by in large terrestrial creatures. For locomotion and where they live I'd say sure, but if it's that big an exoskeleton shouldn't support it well. Although perhaps they're skeleton would be comprised of a protein strong than arthropod exoskeletons, which given my ground rules, is probably more likely than them being the same.

Hork-Bajir: Yes. Obviously designed to be perfectly adapted to their niche. Reproduction concerns me, but I don't know enough about theirs to say more. And of course, everything is depends on the environment. So long as the right type of trees can exist, the Hork-Bajir should be okay, not the case if they only have the trees like the one in your living room this week.

Andalite: No. A large warmblooded creature that feeds by absorbing grass nutrients by merely crushing it seems far-fetched to me. A creature that size with fur, muscle, bone and whatever the tail is made of regulated by I think two hearts; that's a lot to sustain if you consider that Andalites aren't constantly feeding. Most grazers spend most of the day everyday eating and even if they eat while just normally walking around (which doesn't seem to be the case from what we've read), no metabolic process is 100% efficient, you spend all that energy walking around to crush new food with hooves of only so large a surface area, to me that's a push. Plus, maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but walking over grass seems to do more harm that just eating it. You can mow a lawn once a week and it'll be fine, but you walk a path over it x times every so often it suffers, and since they no longer migrate, that seems like Andalites should all be starving to me.

Yeerks: Yes: It's known that some parasites can control their host via hormones, to control the nerve center is a obviously a bit different, but probably more complete. And assuming it has a capable host, the mortality rate is probably much better in the host than out, plus you could set up host for future generations. So parasite brain slug yes, but for the sentience thing, see below.

All of the above was just some general physiological stuff. When it comes to any species being sentient, well that's harder. Under my ground rules, it has to be a developed character, and the odds of that are slim on it's own, I belief, in any and everything. However, once there it should be a highly valuable, self perpetuating trait. It's getting there that is problem, and when it would occur, before, during or after the aliens as we know them is indeterminable.

I probably over and under did it all I once, but yeah. Odds of any particular thing are between slim and none, and probably closer to none. The thing to keep in mind for all of it though is that while natural selection for a trait is not random, the mutations that bring about the good or bad variation more or less is.
For being like yeerks, the odds of becoming a neural parasite over millions of years is probably small, but if you do, and it works, than it's good reason to suspect they could very well exist. Seriously, even with the quadrillions of stars and planets out there, the odds of any of these things out there should be dismal, but you could say the same thing about life on earth, the human race, and each of us individually. There's some other points in this to hit one but I'm drawing a blank for now, but yeah. Fun question
That ends my senior thesis for biology- I mean my post  ::)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 09:24:24 PM by RYTX »
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Offline Phoenix004

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 11:18:28 PM »
Naturally they all sound unrealistic (probably because they're fictional) but if you know about some of the truly bizarre animals on good old planet Earth you might find that start to believe anything is possible.
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 11:30:06 PM »
We have some weird stuff on our planet, but science tells us that insects just can't grow very big. I believe a species of Tarantula is supposed to be about as big as a crawly can get. Taxxons are described as bags of goo, which means they don't have bones. So they aren't realistic. Andalites and Hork-Bajir seem a bit more realistic, but Andalite eating habits owuldn't be as efficient as using a big mouth to gobble up bales of grass. So they'd have to be constantly eating all the time. I don't know what to say about Horks. They're not even products of evolution, so there you go.


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Offline Gumby

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 11:36:01 PM »
If you take the Evolutionary side, I doubt it. The odds for life evolving from nothing on its own is well over a trillion to one, So know. I also think the galaxy has a small sector in it which is the habitable sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone. So evolutionary no. I believe in God, and I do believe in alien life. Not spacemen in saucers, but just some sort of life, no matter how basic. But I don't believe in separate alien sentient beings.
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Offline Myitt

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 11:43:50 PM »
RYTX brings up an excellent point about the Andalites being grazers.  Given their large bodies and active lifestyles, they'd probably have to absorb a lot of grass to maintain active and healthy.  It seems difficult for what's basically a modified ruminant to develop an organized society, just because of the sheer amount of time most grazing animals spend eating.  But that's basing our assumptions on the metabolisms of Earth animals, and also figuring that the way Andalite hooves crush grass and absorb nutrients isn't like, a thousand times more effective than chewing (and rechewing) tough Earth grasses and leaves.

I could see large invertebrate "centipedes" evolving, much like the Taxxons; in fact in Earth's history there were giant centipedes, almost four feet long.  Maybe not nearly as big and ravenous as Taxxons, but still pretty big compared to today.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoberia

And come on...Starship Troopers and Men In Black are just too fun to imagine giant insectoids not existing xD

As for Yeerks, I think the likelihood of brain parasitism in the universe is probably just as likely as it is here on Earth (as RYTX pointed out there are a number of single-celled organic brain parasites here on Earth already; protists like toxoplasma; and there is a parasitic worm that infests snails and forces them to be eaten by the birds that are used in the next step of the worm's lifecycle o_O)

However I think the mechanism of Yeerk infestation is pretty unlikely; the probability that one alien species can infest a variety of other aliens without causing brain damage, or alerting the host's immune system, or simply puncturing the eardrum or having to dig through bone and tissue to get to the brain (as would in reality be the case in humans)...it doesn't sound like the host would survive in many more cases than we'd all like to think.  Unless a Yeerk somehow travels through the nerve conduit that carries the auditory nerve to the brain...without damaging it...it would still have to screw around with delicate tin ear bones (which is mentioned in Visser as Edriss basically juggling them around as she explored the human ear canal.  Hmmm...yeah that would've made the poor Iraqi soldier deaf, I think...-___-

It is interesting though that a few parasitic protists have evolved on Earth, I think the closest things we can compare Yeerks to on Earth are multicellular photosynthetic protists, sort of like sentient seaweed, or a clump of sentient algae cells that are more amboeboid.  And of course with a neural network and a high level of sentience.

Oh god...I thought about this crap way too much as a bio major and uber nerd XD


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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 03:03:44 PM »
You guys do realize that we have absolutely no idea how likely it is for sentient life to form, right? The simple version of Drakes Equation goes like this:

The Drake equation states that:

    N = R*fp*ne*f?*fi*fc*L
where:
    N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;
and
    R* is the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
    fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets
    ne is the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
    f? is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
    fi is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
    fc is the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
    L is the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

Yes, I know that's not exactly what we're talking about here, but I just wanted to use it to point out literally every single variable in this equation is an unknown. You can't definitely say one way or the other what the odds of intelligent life having evolved on a planet near us at approximately this time in the universe are. We might be the only sentient race in the history of the universe, or there might be one in every other star system. Interstellar sci-fi tends to split the difference  :P

Early unicellular life had no mouths- I can see it as entirely plausible that a multicellular species could evolve all the way to sentience based entirely on the absorption of food into their system. I think I've got to agree, however, that the mechanism by which the Andalites do this seems like it would be frighteningly inefficient compared to the energy their bodies need to survive. On the other hand, evolution has come up with much stranger things right here on good ol' Earth, and with the right design on the microscopic level I suppose enough of the nutrients from the grass could be absorbed. As for their centaur-like appearance... it seems astonishingly unlikely to me, but again, stranger things have happened.

Yeerks' ability to control the Gedds seems... possible, I guess. How that would work out evolutionarily with them developing intelligence, and with the Gedds not evolving some sort of defense, I'm not sure. I guess the Gedds could start to develop a sort of symbiosis with the more-intelligent Yeerks; a Gedd-Controller is more likely to survive than a regular Gedd. But, yeah, like Myitt was saying, the odds of the Yeerks being able to infest alien species who all happen to have ear canals structured such that they can be used to enter a centralized brain located in the head... very unlikely. Haha... oh, wild speculation, you are my friend. Stranger things have happened  ;D I guess that's why there's a "fiction" in "science fiction."

The Taxxon size might make sense. If they evolved on a planet with lower gravity than Earth, they may well have been able to grow to a larger size. More importantly, if the oxygen supply was higher (assuming they breathe oxygen), larger creatures are more advantageous. The reason dinosaurs were able to grow to such immense sizes is due in part to the higher levels of atmospheric oxygen at the time. Who's to say that creatures like that couldn't evolve in a lower gravity/higher oxygen environment?

The Hork-Bajir obviously didn't evolve at all in the series, but they're another species that seems reasonable, like RYTX was saying. Perfectly adapted to do exactly what they were designed to do. Assuming trees managed to evolve on other planets, but when you get plants beginning to compete for sunlight, growing upward seems like a pretty logical adaptation.

This is actually a really fun question to think about

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Offline Myitt

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 12:00:04 PM »
Here are a couple of neat videos on the immensity of the universe.  Even if we can never get in touch with other life forms, or even if the only other life forms out there are bacteria, it seems utterly impossible that there isn't something...somewhe re...in some galaxy far, far away  ;D

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R9U5b_YV0Y&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U[/youtube]

Assuming trees managed to evolve on other planets, but when you get plants beginning to compete for sunlight, growing upward seems like a pretty logical adaptation.

This is actually a really fun question to think about

It is a lot of fun to mull over the possibilities of alien evolution :D  I love it...I totally want the biologists' job in Avatar or Dune or the Ender's Game series x3

Anyway I wanted to mention about trees, according to the Andalite Chronicles at least one species of "tree" on the Yeerk homeworld grows only a foot or so tall and then branches out for many feet or many miles or whatever it was.  That's an interesting idea.  Then again, I always pictured the Yeerk homeworld as kind of flat and barren, so maybe that would work for Yeerk trees?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 12:04:36 PM by Myitt »


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Offline Acalio-Laron-Jaham

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 12:21:55 PM »
Yeah, I reckon its 50/50. Its not impossible for such things to exist. I mean, we don't even now for sure yet whether there actually is or isn't any other life out there in the universe. So I say that before we make our definite conclusions, we should wait until we know for sure first that if theirs actually life on other planets or not. But, since the answers to this may not come within our lifetime, all we can make for now I guess are our assumptions based on our logic and educations.

But, in regards to that, we are making our cases against these creatures from animorphs or ones similar to them from existing based on our own thinking, logic and knowledge of evolution and biology of living organisms of/on earth, and only earth. Whose to say that we are 100% correct? what if we are wrong all about these stuff which we think we know, like how we were wrong a few centuries ago? its certainly not impossible for us to be wrong again. History proves this.

And so, before we decide to close off our minds to the possibilities, I reckon leave it open, at least until we know all the facts. But its highly likely that all the facts won't come around in our lifetime. So in my opinion, I say leave the possibility open. Why not? right?    
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 12:24:29 PM by Acalio-Laron-Jaham »

Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2009, 01:18:27 PM »
If you take the Evolutionary side, I doubt it. The odds for life evolving from nothing on its own is well over a trillion to one, So know. I also think the galaxy has a small sector in it which is the habitable sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone. So evolutionary no. I believe in God, and I do believe in alien life. Not spacemen in saucers, but just some sort of life, no matter how basic. But I don't believe in separate alien sentient beings.

that doesnt really make sense... firstly "habitable sector" is for habitable to us, whose to say there arent aliens on neptune going "well theres no way life can exist on earth, its too hot and theres too much oxygen"
also, if you believe life exists on other planets, why is it impossible that any of them, even one, evolved intelligence like we did?  or is free will simply an earth based experiment for GOD, and all other planets are more like zoos?

Offline adeon222

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2010, 01:17:47 PM »
I think that there's no reason why intelligent life on other planets couldn't exist, and I think that that is a fascinating and awesome possibility... But it is my opinion that there isn't any, and that until we become a heck of a lot more advanced, we'll never know, even if there is...
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Offline gocorygogo

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2010, 09:19:13 AM »
I do think there could intelligent life out there but probably not the andalite kind. Take a look at andalite's head shape; similar to ours what with two main eyes and a nose and also ears...It's the no mouth thing I don't get. Their heads are exactly the same as humans right down to the jaw line. Does that strike anybody else as odd? They have jawlines but NO jaws :-\ ? If evolution has taught us anything it is to weed out unnecessary body parts. Shouldn't andalite's skulls be perfectly round and end right under their nose slit thingies? They only logical explanation is that andalites once had mouths and evolved them away and still have a vestigial jawline...or...they are in the process of evolving mouths right now as a species...I could be wrong considering I don't know that much about biology other than basic comm. col. courses but it still seems odd to me. what do you think?

Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 11:04:01 AM »
iirc didnt elfangor mention andalites having mouths at some point in andalite chronicles? but then that seemed to be contradicted in elimmist chronicles... and evolution doesnt weed out the useless, otherwise no new body parts would ever evolve, it weeds out the harmful.  there is nother harmful about a jawline, so there is nothing selecting against it. besides, maybe it houses some other organ for them?

Offline gocorygogo

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2010, 11:28:55 AM »
Good call, I didn't think about that. It would be cool if their whole brain was the size of their head  :-]. Might explain why andalites are so smart.

Offline Aluminator (Kit)

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Re: Can They Exist?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2010, 01:10:50 PM »
Thing about that is, even human brains are obscenely large in the animal kingdom. They take a huge amount of nutrition to keep alive and functioning (30% of everything we take in goes to the brain, if I'm thinking correctly). The Andalites take in their nutrients through their hooves, which, as we discussed earlier, seems like a fairly inefficient system. If anything, their brains are probably smaller than ours- though possibly more effective.

Maybe the jawline/chin is where they keep their stuck up gland...

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