Author Topic: Yeerk Evolution  (Read 11025 times)

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Offline Azguard

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2009, 01:41:59 PM »
 ok, so here's my question. How long has the infestation been going on for? If it was a while, just how big are the Gedd populations? If it was a while, do you think nearly 100% of Gedds are infested?

And then also this, just how intelligent are Yeerks? If they weren't that intelligent, what does it benefit the Gedd? And if they were, how come the generations of Gedd infestation needed to evolve this relationship not have moved the Yeerks toward a more advanced civilization (in human terms, like cities, planes, maybe even spaceships)?

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Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2009, 12:09:13 AM »

Offline Tiana

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 10:26:19 AM »
How I look at Yeerk evolution is by noting that, between Gedds and Yeerks, the relationship is actually not a parasitic one.  They have a true symbiotic relationship, beneficial for both species.  The Yeerks get the Gedd's body, the Gedds get the benefit of the Yeerk's intelligence.  Win-win.

I disagree. The Gedds lose control over themselves, and while they may not be intelligent by human/Yeerk/Andalite standards, they are still a sentient species.

If you recall in Book 6: The Capture, the Gedd was described to be fearful and bewildered by his imprisonment, while the Yeerk ruthlessly crushed and subdued the Gedd.

That doesn't sound beneficial for the Gedd. Doesn't sound like a win-win either. It is no symbiotic relationship, it is a parasitic one. True symbiosis would be the Iskroot.

Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 10:49:12 AM »
How I look at Yeerk evolution is by noting that, between Gedds and Yeerks, the relationship is actually not a parasitic one.  They have a true symbiotic relationship, beneficial for both species.  The Yeerks get the Gedd's body, the Gedds get the benefit of the Yeerk's intelligence.  Win-win.

I disagree. The Gedds lose control over themselves, and while they may not be intelligent by human/Yeerk/Andalite standards, they are still a sentient species.

If you recall in Book 6: The Capture, the Gedd was described to be fearful and bewildered by his imprisonment, while the Yeerk ruthlessly crushed and subdued the Gedd.

That doesn't sound beneficial for the Gedd. Doesn't sound like a win-win either. It is no symbiotic relationship, it is a parasitic one. True symbiosis would be the Iskroot.

did they ever explain exactly HOW it was symbiotic, beyond the isk just being voluntary controllers? either way, i am disappointed that nothing ever came of it, the elimmist was pretty adamant that they need to survive to the yeerks can meet them and see the error of their ways.

Offline Adrian Malacoda

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 11:05:39 AM »
did they ever explain exactly HOW it was symbiotic, beyond the isk just being voluntary controllers?
The Isk were "voluntary" because they were created specifically to be hosts for the Yoort and didn't have a life outside of that. The Yoort also modified their own biology so as to specifically require an Isk host (as opposed to just any host).

I don't think it's right to say that "nothing" came out of it; the implication was that the Yeerks would "discover" the Yoort "a long time from now" because the Yoort were pretty far away from the action. This implies that the Yeerk empire did in fact survive the war, but in a beaten state. They might have gone outward, away from our area of space, trying to regain their former power, until finding the Yoort.

According to #41 (which might or might not be canon, but is supposed to be some sort of future) there is an "Evolutionist Front" 20 years from present time. Perhaps the Yeerks have already found the Yoort in this scenario, resulting in a divide between imperialists and evolutionists (who want to become like Yoort).
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Offline DinosaurNothlit

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2009, 01:06:27 PM »
How I look at Yeerk evolution is by noting that, between Gedds and Yeerks, the relationship is actually not a parasitic one.  They have a true symbiotic relationship, beneficial for both species.  The Yeerks get the Gedd's body, the Gedds get the benefit of the Yeerk's intelligence.  Win-win.

I disagree. The Gedds lose control over themselves, and while they may not be intelligent by human/Yeerk/Andalite standards, they are still a sentient species.

If you recall in Book 6: The Capture, the Gedd was described to be fearful and bewildered by his imprisonment, while the Yeerk ruthlessly crushed and subdued the Gedd.

That doesn't sound beneficial for the Gedd. Doesn't sound like a win-win either. It is no symbiotic relationship, it is a parasitic one. True symbiosis would be the Iskroot.

Notice that I never said that the Gedds actually liked the arrangement.  Only that it was beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint.  Gedds are much less intelligent than Yeerks, therefore Gedds with a Yeerk in their heads are more likely to succeed and reproduce than Gedds that do not.  They don't have to like it for it to be beneficial to their reproduction.

Evolution does a lot of things that animals don't like.  As an example that's a little closer to home; humans' bodies store fat whenever we eat more than we need.  Do we like it?  No.  Some of us spend our whole lives fighting that particular trait of our physiology.  But is it evolutionarily beneficial to us?  Yes.

All symbiosis really means, is something that is a mutual evolutionary benefit for both species.  Do acacia trees like being protected by ants?  Do ants like living in acacia trees?  Neither species is even capable of 'liking' anything, yet that example is always cited as the classic example of symbiosis.  Therefore, I still think Gedds and Yeerks count as symbiotes.

The Isk and the Yoort have a deeper symbiosis, of course, given that neither of them can even live without the other.  Doesn't mean that Gedds and Yeerks are not symbiotic.

Offline Azguard

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 09:51:03 PM »
Yeah, that's true. i guess it is beneficial for  awhile for the Gedd. but after dozens of generations of enslavement, I think it might actually destroy the Gedds versus if they were left to naturally evolve. I mean, Yeerks take over minds for goodness sakes. Besides, the Yeerks can perfectly live in their pools without having to hurt anyone. But no, they had to go and become parasitic.
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Offline Tiana

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2009, 12:13:45 AM »
How I look at Yeerk evolution is by noting that, between Gedds and Yeerks, the relationship is actually not a parasitic one.  They have a true symbiotic relationship, beneficial for both species.  The Yeerks get the Gedd's body, the Gedds get the benefit of the Yeerk's intelligence.  Win-win.

I disagree. The Gedds lose control over themselves, and while they may not be intelligent by human/Yeerk/Andalite standards, they are still a sentient species.

If you recall in Book 6: The Capture, the Gedd was described to be fearful and bewildered by his imprisonment, while the Yeerk ruthlessly crushed and subdued the Gedd.

That doesn't sound beneficial for the Gedd. Doesn't sound like a win-win either. It is no symbiotic relationship, it is a parasitic one. True symbiosis would be the Iskroot.

Notice that I never said that the Gedds actually liked the arrangement.  Only that it was beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint.  Gedds are much less intelligent than Yeerks, therefore Gedds with a Yeerk in their heads are more likely to succeed and reproduce than Gedds that do not.  They don't have to like it for it to be beneficial to their reproduction.

Evolution does a lot of things that animals don't like.  As an example that's a little closer to home; humans' bodies store fat whenever we eat more than we need.  Do we like it?  No.  Some of us spend our whole lives fighting that particular trait of our physiology.  But is it evolutionarily beneficial to us?  Yes.

All symbiosis really means, is something that is a mutual evolutionary benefit for both species.  Do acacia trees like being protected by ants?  Do ants like living in acacia trees?  Neither species is even capable of 'liking' anything, yet that example is always cited as the classic example of symbiosis.  Therefore, I still think Gedds and Yeerks count as symbiotes.

The Isk and the Yoort have a deeper symbiosis, of course, given that neither of them can even live without the other.  Doesn't mean that Gedds and Yeerks are not symbiotic.

Before the Yeerks enslaved them, the Gedds seemed to be living just fine. There was no mention of unYeerked Gedds dying at a greater rate than those with Yeerks. By losing their freedom, that means the relationship between Yeerks and Gedds is NOT symbiotic and mutually beneficial. How can any sentient species think that losing their freedom is beneficial?

I'm not sure what the storing fat example has to do with the Yeerks evolution. Storing fat is beneficial to ourselves, but it does not involve taking over another species and causing them great harm. *shrug*

I also disagree with the trees/ants example, because those do not involve two sentient species. Trees and ants are not capable of making the choices that Yeerks and Gedds make.

:)

Offline DinosaurNothlit

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2009, 12:35:14 AM »
How I look at Yeerk evolution is by noting that, between Gedds and Yeerks, the relationship is actually not a parasitic one.  They have a true symbiotic relationship, beneficial for both species.  The Yeerks get the Gedd's body, the Gedds get the benefit of the Yeerk's intelligence.  Win-win.

I disagree. The Gedds lose control over themselves, and while they may not be intelligent by human/Yeerk/Andalite standards, they are still a sentient species.

If you recall in Book 6: The Capture, the Gedd was described to be fearful and bewildered by his imprisonment, while the Yeerk ruthlessly crushed and subdued the Gedd.

That doesn't sound beneficial for the Gedd. Doesn't sound like a win-win either. It is no symbiotic relationship, it is a parasitic one. True symbiosis would be the Iskroot.

Notice that I never said that the Gedds actually liked the arrangement.  Only that it was beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint.  Gedds are much less intelligent than Yeerks, therefore Gedds with a Yeerk in their heads are more likely to succeed and reproduce than Gedds that do not.  They don't have to like it for it to be beneficial to their reproduction.

Evolution does a lot of things that animals don't like.  As an example that's a little closer to home; humans' bodies store fat whenever we eat more than we need.  Do we like it?  No.  Some of us spend our whole lives fighting that particular trait of our physiology.  But is it evolutionarily beneficial to us?  Yes.

All symbiosis really means, is something that is a mutual evolutionary benefit for both species.  Do acacia trees like being protected by ants?  Do ants like living in acacia trees?  Neither species is even capable of 'liking' anything, yet that example is always cited as the classic example of symbiosis.  Therefore, I still think Gedds and Yeerks count as symbiotes.

The Isk and the Yoort have a deeper symbiosis, of course, given that neither of them can even live without the other.  Doesn't mean that Gedds and Yeerks are not symbiotic.

Before the Yeerks enslaved them, the Gedds seemed to be living just fine. There was no mention of unYeerked Gedds dying at a greater rate than those with Yeerks. By losing their freedom, that means the relationship between Yeerks and Gedds is NOT symbiotic and mutually beneficial. How can any sentient species think that losing their freedom is beneficial?

I'm not sure what the storing fat example has to do with the Yeerks evolution. Storing fat is beneficial to ourselves, but it does not involve taking over another species and causing them great harm. *shrug*

I also disagree with the trees/ants example, because those do not involve two sentient species. Trees and ants are not capable of making the choices that Yeerks and Gedds make.

:)

My point about the storing fat example is simply that species do not always like what is evolutionarily beneficial to them.  Evolution and symbiosis has nothing at all to do with personal freedoms or happiness.

And there was no mention of unYeerked Gedds dying at a greater rate, simply because there weren't enough free Gedds left at that point for it to matter.  I mean, the Yeerks pretty much had completely taken over their own planet by the time the Andalites got there, right?

Anyway, I think maybe I'm not being very clear, and that's why you're misunderstanding me.  We seem to be operating under different definitions of the word 'beneficial.'  I'm saying that it doesn't matter if the Gedds prefer, in their own minds, to be free or not to be free.  If evolution selects for Gedd-controllers, then Gedds will evolve in that direction, whether they like it or not.

And, I would even go so far as to argue that some Gedds probably actually did like to be infested.  Otherwise, why would they seek out Yeerks in the first place?  And if they didn't seek out Yeerks, then how could the Yeerks have found them?  And besides, evolution grants all species the desire to do what is beneficial to their survival (in the Gedds' example, putting Yeerks in their ears), so it wouldn't be totally illogical to think that Gedds had perhaps evolved a deep-seated need for companionship, maybe even so strong that they couldn't function without another mind alongside theirs.  The example that you cited in book #6 was one example, perhaps an aberrant Gedd, or maybe even a KASU (lord knows there are plenty of those).  I don't think that it's a very good argument against symbiosis, though, even if it is true.

I'm going from the strict, scientific definition of symbiotes, which is merely two species that aid each others' evolutionary survival.  And the Gedds and the Yeerks seem to fit that definition.  You seem to have a different definition, though, and I think that's all we're really arguing about.  I'm not saying, after all, that being a controller is in any way preferable, from a single individual's standpoint, over being free.  But it's beneficial to the species, and to evolution, that's all that matters.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 12:37:17 AM by DinosaurNothlit »

Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 12:50:02 AM »
Well the point about the Gedd’s losing their intellect over the years is important.
Think of the importance of intelligence in human evolution: intelligent people, until the 19th century, generally had more children and more of their children survived to adulthood and spread their genes, because intelligence gives you greater access to resources (food, shelter etc). As more intelligent people are born and survive this should result in a more intelligent species. However if someone did your thinking for you and therefore provided you with resources (like food and shelter etc) you wouldn’t need intelligence to ensure the survival of your children. Indeed in some situations or culture intelligence might be a disadvantage. For example Theodore Dalrymple, in his cataloguing of the lives of welfare dependents in English slums, notes that children who dare to be intelligent and hardworking (and therefore shame and show up their lazy, stupid classmates) are bullied mercilessly, they may as well be dumb. Margaret Mead (whom I despise and was basically wrong about everything) describes incidents in her ‘Coming of Age in Samoa’ (rather than relying on hearsay as she usually did) where boys who were too ambitious were excluded by their peers. Arguably, thousands or millions of years of being controlled by the Yeerks would make intelligence a disadvantage: being a controller would drive an intelligent person insane… so arguably the Yeerks have been a huge disadvantages to the Gedds, basically stunting their intellect, the same way that machinery and computers have stunted human physical strength.

Offline Shock

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2009, 01:09:27 AM »
on a very blunt note, im going to point out that yeerks would have enjoyed their hosts making babies (also a basis for a very smutty fanfic) so reproduction isn't a issue.

however, what isn't know is the venerability of a Gedd fresh out of the womb. growing a kid is a timely investment from a evolutionary standpoint. are they like sharks? where they are ready to survive all alone? or are they like early humans? totally and completely depended on a group to survive?

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Offline Azguard

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2009, 01:39:32 AM »
 hmmm.. DN has a point about evolution. because evolution isn't a real living breathing thing. It doesn't consciously think. its a theory, and its luck. so from "evolution's" point of view, it doesn't matter if the Gedds liked it or not, evolution was just trying to do the best for each species. What we'll never know is how much the Gedd's would have evolved if the Yeerk's didn't infest them, whether they would have gained full sentience or not.

and about the Gedds seeking Yeerks, maybe it was just the Yeerks seeking Gedds? Maybe by the time this whole infestation thing was occurring, it wasn't even natural evolution. who knows?
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Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2009, 03:33:43 AM »
oh sure, DNA/evolutuion  has no point and doesn't value what we  value.
Question: who is more successful?
a)Nadya Suleiman and the brood mares at Centrelink with 10 kids to 10 different men.
or
B) Albert Einstein and women university graduates with their 2.5 children born in their late 30's (as they say: the more educated a woman the fewer her children)?
Answer: A, because their genes are more spread out and prevalent (their stupidity has turned into an advantage):(
Of course until the 19th century success and children usually correlated the ultimate example being Genghis Khan with more descendants than any other human on earth.
However people are arguing that the Yeerks are symbiotic with the  Gedds because the yeerks enable the Gedds more reproduction, whilst i am arguing that the yeerks stunted or even regresssed Gedd evolution/intelligence by the very act of controlling them for so long.

Offline DinosaurNothlit

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2009, 09:41:51 AM »
Well, if Yeerks did stunt the Gedds intelligence by their presence, then the Gedds would have needed the Yeerks even more, and it would have become a vicious cycle.  Gedds rely on Yeerks to think for them, Gedds get stupider, Gedds rely even more on the Yeerks, and get stupider and stupider.

It's a good point about intelligence eventually becoming a drawback.  But comparing humans to Yeerks may not be entirely accurate.  I mean, humans don't really need to be intelligent to survive anymore.  Sure, we used to, but now we can just rely on other intelligent people to take care of all the stupid ones.  Ergo, stupidity becomes the more beneficial trait.

Yeerks never seem to have built any sort of advanced civilization (which seems pretty strange in itself, for such an intelligent race), so they would still need to rely on their brains to survive.  Which humans don't, anymore.

As weird as it is that they never created a real civilization, that may actually do something to explain why they are as intelligent as they are (intelligent enough to very quickly grasp Andalite technology, which is pretty darn smart).  They had to keep evolving their intelligence beyond what humans did, just to survive.

on a very blunt note, im going to point out that yeerks would have enjoyed their hosts making babies (also a basis for a very smutty fanfic) so reproduction isn't a issue.

Actually . . . I don't know, but that's something else I wondered about.  Yeerks seem to frown on letting their hosts have babies (in Visser, Visser One was basically put on trial for it), so how the heck did they keep the races they controlled from going extinct?

Offline Azguard

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Re: Yeerk Evolution
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2009, 09:49:19 AM »
maybe they have specialized Yeerks who do that sorta thing... ? although, if the Gedds reproduce slowly, that'd be a crazy job.
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