Cassie

[Chad32]

You don't think trapping David as a rat, as opposed to giving him a quick death, so she could fee better about herself wasn't extreme? You think quitting the team so she doesn't turn into Rachel, and allowing herself to be infested with no consultation with anyone else isn't etreme? You think letting Tom get aweay with the box, then making up a reason that she did it for the Yeerks when we KNOW she wasn't thinking about that at the time wasn't the least bit wrong? I disagree.

I have said before that she plays a crucial role. However, she takes it too far.

[Liz]

And every group does need someone with high morals to keep them balanced. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone on here acts like if they were in Animorphs they'd be blowing s*** up left n right shouting "Die Yeerk! Die!" all gung-ho pro-Rachel-style. Lol.  Yeah, right. Even you would appreciate someone with morals

Yes, Cassie was the only one in the group who put morals first.  Marco and Rachel just focused on what had to be done.  Ax and Jake did too, except Ax was following Jake and Jake was listening to Cassie.  Tobias...is somewhere in the middle, I guess.

[filmstu2005]

I guess we agree to disagree Chad. Cassie did what she needed to do to stay sane. If taking someones' life could be avoided then she took that choice. Simple. I wouldn't want to kill kill kill all the time. I wouldnt call that being a moral extremist. And y not quit something that was constantly compromising your principles? If it goes against everything you believe in then by all means, take action to better yourself. She eventually came back in that book when she realized how much depth existed along the lines of good vs evil, Yeerk Vs Andalite. And how selfish she was being on the grander scale. Humanity was at stake, and killing wasnt a likeable option. She did find her own way though of fighting this war by helping to start the Yeerk Peace Movement, which i would have loved to have read more about and gone deeper into. You cant say she didnt make any sacrifices to help end the war.

As for keeping Jake from killing his brother, well, i guess that can be a little bit extreme, trying to hopelessly save the sanity of the irreplaceable leader of the entire resistance against the massive Yeerk threat on Earth? Yea...Then again, Jake did do the exact same thing to Marco in Book 30 the Reunion, keeping Marco from killing his mother b/c it would ruin him. Hmm...I guess Jake's a moral extremist too, looking out for his fellow Animorphs like that, the way Cassie did so much later on...

I wouldnt have killed David either.  In fact Id done the same rat thing to him. And Im willing to bet Rachel didnt kill him either. But hey, thats never going to be figured out.

[Chad32]

The difference betwen what Cassie did and what Jake did is that Tom had the box, and killing him or letting him go were not the only two options. Yes those two times are vaguely similar, but there were big differences between them. If either one of them had been in their right minds, they would have realised that a tiger and a wolf can take down a human controller without killing him.

Everyone has flaws, and I guess I just focus on Cassie more because she's the one I relate to and agree with the least. Just because something goes against your principles doesn't make it wrong. Sometimes you just need to change your principles.

[JFalcon]

Cassie may or may not have been an extremist but choosing to make David a nothlit was wrong for a number of reasons, some tactical, some moral, and honestly I'm sure she lost sleep over it, if not then she should have, they all should have because though it was her idea she isn't alone in the blame. They condemned him to a limited tormented existance so they could say "look, we didn't kill him" it was difficult question for any of them but in some ways Cassie's was a selfish answer. Trapping David as a rat was cruel because David didn't just die he suffered for the rest of his life, if Rachel indeed let him live as I suspect then he suffered for months, rats live, I believe, three years or so? I'd have to check on it but imagine having been a human and then being a rat for even one year. It was cruel, and yes David had commited some serious crimes but was that level of punishment justified? Was it the right thing to do? Many thigns are perspective but frankly I can't consider this right by any means. We execute traitors, we don't paralyze them from the neck down, blind them, and then keep them alive so they can suffer for their actions, compared to David's life before being a rat, flying as an eagle, swimming as a whale, suddenly he's a rodent left on a rock you ["you" being anyone reading this, no individual in particular] can roll your eyes and say "it wasn't that bad" but there's something we'd never agree on.

To me choosing to kill Hork-Bajir despite knowing they're a good and honorable people, killing Taxxons just because they're gross, killing Yeerks because they're trying not to be condemned to pools on their homeworld, then refusing to kill someone who has tried to kill you, turn you in to your enemies, has threatened your families and has time and again shown he doesn't care about the human race as a whole just because he happens to be human? That's wrong. Deciding that he needs to pay for what he did, that was a tricky decision but what they (all the Animorps, not just Cassie) decided on, the punishment was far worse than the crime. It's very unlucky for David that the Animorphs weren't a real military, in a real military David would have been executed, not made to suffer for who knows how long. To me whatever your feelings towards Cassie (my own are a heaping helping of indifference) her choice to make David a nothlit is indefensible, her intention was both selfish and selfless but in the end it was Rachel and Ax who had to suffer David's proverbial death throes so in this way the Animorphs wrong not only David but also two of their own loyal members, Ax and Rachel who have to live with a memory much darker than any of the others, and even a fan who hates Rachel would be ignorant to assume it didn't bother her, Ax too was clearly bothered.

Making David a nothlit could have been permissable if there had been a way to restore him once the war was over, then it's a punishment, a way of keeping him out of the way until humnity is saved, but since the Andalites didn't have any way of restoring Nothlits (Arbron died a Taxxon) it was a condemnation to a torment that could last even after the war is over if he's still alive by then. I can't imagine doing something like that to my worst enemy, the level of hatred necessary for that isn't something I've felt yet and I don't think even the Animorphs felt it, I think they were desperate and that desperation caused them to make one of their biggest mistakes, bigger in fact, than making David an Animorph in the first place. You'd think Cassie would have been the one saying "This is too much, we can't do this to him" instead it was her plan. I consider this a chink in her +5 Armor of Perfection, but one of perspective, see to me it was wrong, to others it might be a stroke of genius making her even more perfect.

[filmstu2005]

Well, all i know is killing him would've been wrong, seeing that he hadn't killed any of them yet, although he thought he did and felt no remorse for it.

Do you really feel sentencing your enemy to a short life imprisoned as a rat is far worse than killing them? Compare that to our own legal system, where murderers are given life in prision because the death penalty isnt always the best option. Let them live for their crimes so they suffer for the mistakes they've made and can never take back.

I see that same case in this situation. Y kill him if you dont full-blown have to? Kind of makes you worse than the culprit. David was a psycho kid, and what he did to Saddler and what he thought he did to Tobias were bad, but given the situation we can't blame him. I fault the Animorphs more for actually MAKING him an Animiorph. In all honesty he would've been safer with the Yeerks than on the run with the Animorphs and subjected to a life of hiding out here and there. At least he still would've had a home and probably couldve survived once the war was over.

Cassie should've seen that one coming, there were already signs that he wouldnt be able to cope. That was their mistake. So to give him the morphing powers, endure his psycho hit-n-runs b/c of the choie they made that ruined his life, and THEN kill him? That wouldve been extremely hypocritical dont you think?

That would REAlly make the ANimorphs evil cold-hearted demonic SOBs.

And it wasnt that big of a deal that Rachel and Ax stayed behind to watch David become trapped. Rachel yelled at them to leave anyway, lol, and did it to protect the others. If Rachel had killed David in self-defence, then so be it, only it never came to that.

Anyway, Cassie made dangerous decisions with her heart and what she felt was right, and because of her "supernatural" peculiarity they turned out well, as I knew they would based on the eccentricity of this character that KA had created and the successful leaps of faith she was known to make.

[Chad32]

Yeah, but we don't tear off the murderes arms or legs, or poke out their eyes, or do anything that would make them physically incapable of coming out of jail living the same way they did before. How could David possibly find happiness again whil being trapped as a rat? Yeah, giving him the power was a mistake. But there are worse things you can do to people than just killing them. They made their mistake, and David couldn't be trusted. But trapping him like that just isn't right. Like JFalcon said, he'd just be living a miserable few years at the bottom of the food chain. How is that better than just killing him?

[JFalcon]

Well, all i know is killing him would've been wrong, seeing that he hadn't killed any of them yet, although he thought he did and felt no remorse for it.

Do you really feel sentencing your enemy to a short life imprisoned as a rat is far worse than killing them? Compare that to our own legal system, where murderers are given life in prision because the death penalty isnt always the best option. Let them live for their crimes so they suffer for the mistakes they've made and can never take back.

Yeah actually I do think killing someone instead of sentencing them to a life of torture is better or at least no worse. A short life of torture is still a life of torture and again even one year is a terrible amount of time to be tortured, so just imagine three. I can see how it could be wrong to kill someone on principal (which again leads me to killing Hork-Bajir and Taxxons but not humans) but what did they do instead? They sent him to hell until he was either killed or died of old age, David was turned into a half blind prey animal on a rock until he got off of that rock and besides the major difference between being imprisoned for life and being turned into a rat David wasn't a murderer as far as we know, but he was a traitor, that much we know for certain and traitors are generally executed. David didn't actually kill Tobias, he didn't kill any of the animorphs in battle, didn't turn them in to Visser Three, didn't interfere with them saving the world leaders, but he tried to kill Tobias, tried to kill them in battle, was probably there to interfere with saving the heads of state and threatened to turn them in to the Yeerks, so David was a traitor, still not a murderer.

I see that same case in this situation. Y kill him if you dont full-blown have to? Kind of makes you worse than the culprit. David was a psycho kid, and what he did to Saddler and what he thought he did to Tobias were bad, but given the situation we can't blame him. I fault the Animorphs more for actually MAKING him an Animiorph. In all honesty he would've been safer with the Yeerks than on the run with the Animorphs and subjected to a life of hiding out here and there. At least he still would've had a home and probably couldve survived once the war was over.

The situations are different, I say again that David was a traitor, not a murderer, we have different rules for traitors in war time and murderers at any time. Besides why torture someone if they don't deserve it? I can see how killing David in cold blood is wrong, don't misunderstand, I'm not saying "murder: it's as fun as fun gets" or that killing David was their best option, I'm saying it was pretty sick to think of trapping him as a rat as the superior decision, or to act like that's some stroke of flippin' genius, to me it was wrong, it was more cruel in my mind than simply killing him would have been, but that doesnt mean I think David should have been murdered, I've said before that I wish they could have found a way to work it out with him.

Cassie should've seen that one coming, there were already signs that he wouldnt be able to cope. That was their mistake.

Cassie didn't know David before he saw their faces, by then they had no choice but to make him an Animorph how could she have seen his betrayal coming? She's not a mind reader, she can't stare into David's eyes and see his innermost soul, Marco was the one who knew David best and he voted "no" and most of the rest of the group disagreed with Marco who is not only their strategist but also the one best informed, that was their mistake.

So to give him the morphing powers, endure his psycho hit-n-runs b/c of the choie they made that ruined his life, and THEN kill him? That wouldve been extremely hypocritical dont you think?

That would REAlly make the ANimorphs evil cold-hearted demonic SOBs.

Who said anything about enduring the hit and runs? When did David become blameless for the ruining of his own life? David didn't have incentive to fight, they failed to even mention rescuing his family they failed to try to bond with him because they were in sort of a rush, Jake threatened him, Marco blatantly insulted him and even made light of his father's infestation, Ax intimidated him (unintentionally) David looked down on Tobias and he felt that Rachel looked down on him, David was like Marco prior to finding out about his mother, he had no reason to fight so he didn't want to, worse than Marco he had no connection to anyone in the group and they didn't consider how important bonding with him would have been, but that doesnt change the fact that he was the one who decided to try to sell the cube to Visser Three in exchange for his parents, he was the one who tried to defect at the first opportunity, it doesnt change the fact that he was so insanely incapable of realizing that he couldn't make any sort of deal with the Yeerks that would benefit him so he's far from blameless in the whole ordeal.
If it were me I would have used the time David was contained to explain things to him better, to try to reason with him, I wouldn't just say "this is what you get, conversation finished!" and run off to let him become a rat forever, and don't think that I would just take him at his word that he wouldn't do anything wrong ever again, I'm far too untrusting for that. All else failing I certainly wouldn't have left him a rat and who knows? David might have felt that in killing Tobias he was set down a certain road he couldn't turn back from, which would have been true, but the lucky fact that he hadn't killed Tobias should have opened the road he thought was blocked, if given the chance to consider it he might have realized that.
My solution would have been to call in or else owe a major favor to the Chee, keep David safe with the Kings or some other cell, but this isn't the topic to discuss that at length so I won't, suffice it to say I'll never agree with Cassie's final solution, or at least will never agree that it was not cruel, in the end ask yourself if it would still be right if it were done to you not if it were you doing it to someone else

And it wasnt that big of a deal that Rachel and Ax stayed behind to watch David become trapped.

You can't tell . . . but I'm staring very hard with a very much dropped jaw.

Rachel yelled at them to leave anyway, lol, and did it to protect the others. If Rachel had killed David in self-defence, then so be it, only it never came to that.

Rachel told them to leave in order to protect them. Protect them from what, if it's no big deal? It was a huge deal, it's no light thing to listen to someone screaming in terror at you for two hours and knowing you can free him so easily, it's a huge deal and it's something they all should have faced up to together, how can that seem funny to you, or imply in any way that Rachel, who clearly realized what the ordeal was going to do, thought light of it? She sacraficed herself for the sake of others and not for the first time, Ax had to suffer through it too and what did he ever do to deserve that any more than the rest? They all made the decision, they all should have stayed behind, why shouldn't Cassie have heard David's screams? It was her plan, she should have saw it through as much as any of them. Luckily for her, Rachel, the girl she didn't want to be anything like, the girl she and the others often thought of as their own little psycho demon monster from the land of eternal fire and shopping centers, protected her and took that bullet for her, for all of them minus Ax, it was far from an "lol" moment if you ask me.

Anyway, Cassie made dangerous decisions with her heart and what she felt was right, and because of her "supernatural" peculiarity they turned out well, as I knew they would based on the eccentricity of this character that KA had created and the successful leaps of faith she was known to make.

True, Cassie did make dangerous decisions, that was never in question. She did do what she felt was right and that's pretty much all you can ask of anyone in life and it is a good moral for a character in a book to teach. But at certain points I feel that what she felt was right was wrong, I believe there were other roads to take with David for example and you see the wonderful thing about an opinion is that you and I, myself and Cassie (or I guess K.A.) we don't have to share the same one, and I think that's part of what makes RAF fun, disagreeing and having debates, stretching your brain and such

Mind you we should also respect each other's opinions, and if you feel like I'm disrespecting yours I'm sorry, it's not my intention because I do respect your opinion, I'm just sharing the fact that mine is very much different for a variety of reasons.

I'll probably never agree that turning David into a rat was a postive thing, or that having to sit there and listen to his pleas was no big deal, so I'll probably never agree that Cassie is always right, or perfect, in part because of the David rat decision but for other reasons too and to me that makes her more interesting but still I'm indifferent. I don't hate her, I don't love her, I feel irritated with her at points, I feel, I guess you could say, proud of her at others, to me Cassie just keeps balancing out.

[filmstu2005]

You sound like Ben.

[wotw2112]

My personal opinion of Cassie:

I hate her.  Call her moral or whatever.  In reality she is a hypocrit and an idiot.  In a lot of ways each of the other characters have more consistent (and admirable) moral outlooks than she does. 

Additionally, just about everything that goes wrong at the end of the series can be laid at her feet in some way.

She is a repulsive character who is the least "animorph" of any of them.  She even abandons them at the end!

It doesn't help her cause that I disliked almost every book she narrated after the david trilogy.