Author Topic: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles  (Read 7182 times)

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Offline Terenia

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Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« on: February 24, 2009, 07:14:26 PM »
Summary:

Dak Hamee is a unique Hork-Bajir. His people call him a "seer." He learns more quickly and completely than the rest of his docile race. Hork-Bajir like him are born once a generation.

Aldrea is a young Andalite. Daughter of the notorious Prince Seerow. It is only after she and her family are sent to the Hork0Bajir home world that she begins to fight the Yeerks - and, with Dak's help ultimately discovers their hideous plan.

Esplin 9466 is the Yeerk that will become the feared warlord, Visser Three. He has set out to defeat the Hork-Bajir, and begin the building of the Yeerk Empire.

This story chronicles the fierce Hork-Bajir wars in a time before the Animorphs.

Writing Prompts:
Aldrea and Dak survive the war and have a child, who they name Seerow. It is assumed that Seerow becomes a slave to the Yeerks after Dak and Aldrea's death. Write a fic about Seerow's capture or another situation involving the few surviving Hork-Bajir after the Andalites give up.

Write a one-shot dealing with Alloran's decision to create a Quantum Virus.

Discussion Questions
Feel free to add your own questions

1) This book is interesting because we get to see characters such as Alloran and Visser Three pre-Animorphs era. Visser Three - Esplin 9466 - makes the comment that he does not approve of one of his colleagues because he is ruthless and violent. At what point do you think Esplin crosses the line and becomes just as ruthless and violent?

2) What do you think would have happened to Aldrea if the Yeerks had not destroyed her family?

3) The Arn are powerful biological engineers. They created the Hork-Bajir and all of the mutated monsters of Father Deep in an effort to save their planet after an asteroid hits. What do you think about this use of technology?

4) What do you think about Alloran's decision to use the Quantum Virus? Was it a necessary evil?

5) General opinions of the book overall?

Quotes to Consider
"[...]Either way they will learn to fight and hurt and kill, or they will learn to be slaves. Both will destroy them. Killers or slaves." - Dak Hamee

Would I help make them a race of killers in order to stop the Yeerks? Yes. A thousand times over, yes. - Aldrea

Would he leave me? No[...] it was too late for Dak: He knew that the stars were not flowers. - Aldrea



We had been created by one brilliant species, invaded and enslaved by another, and now a third was using us. - Dak Hamee


and, one of my all-time favorite Animorph Quotes:

"You almighty Andalites. There is no limit to your arrogance, is there? Well, let me tell you something: We may be simple people. But we don't use biology to invent monsters. And we don't enslave other species. And we don't unleash a plague of parasites on the galazy, endangering every other free species, and then go swaggering around like the lords of the universe. No, we're too simple for all that. We're too stupid to lie and manipulate. We're too stupid to be ruthless. We're too stupid to know how to build powerful weapons designed to annihilate our enemies. Until you came, Andalite, we were too stupid to know how to kill."


Next week: #23, The Pretender

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Offline fao13

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 09:46:17 PM »


and, one of my all-time favorite Animorph Quotes:

"You almighty Andalites. There is no limit to your arrogance, is there? Well, let me tell you something: We may be simple people. But we don't use biology to invent monsters. And we don't enslave other species. And we don't unleash a plague of parasites on the galazy, endangering every other free species, and then go swaggering around like the lords of the universe. No, we're too simple for all that. We're too stupid to lie and manipulate. We're too stupid to be ruthless. We're too stupid to know how to build powerful weapons designed to annihilate our enemies. Until you came, Andalite, we were too stupid to know how to kill."


must agree. i STILL get chills when i read this part. solidified Dak Hamee as one of the best characters in the series.

Offline dolphin4077

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 09:59:29 PM »
1.  Visser 3 not approving ruthless and violent behavior was a jaw dropping moment.  However, something that never changed for Esplin was his ambitition.  He probably became more ruthless in order reach his goals.  The Yeerk empire does not promote the meek.

2.  Either dead or controllers.

3.  I liked that they saved their planet, but I didn't like their attitude toward Hork-Bajir.  

4. It was an awful decision.  

5.  I really liked the HBC.  Those quotes you posted makeup a lot of the reasons why I like it.

Is it just me or are most of the characters in the Chronicles not as cool anymore when they show up in the regular Animorph books?  I'm thinking of Chapman, Esplin/Visser 3, Aldrea, and Loren in particular.  My theory is that it's because they were kids in the Chronicles and adults during Animorphs.  Let's face it, if the kids are heroes then adults are either evil, useless idiots, or both.    
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 10:15:22 PM by dolphin4077 »

Offline Gaz

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2009, 10:47:05 PM »
This book was always one of my favorite reads. And that last quote is also one I like.

4) I know Alloran had his reasons for releasing the virus that he believed were right. I'm pretty sure there was a better way to accomplish what he wanted and avoid genocide.

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2009, 02:15:38 AM »
One other question about Esplin 9466 that always comes to mind when I read this:

Esplin decided to become an expert on Andalites not only because he wanted a host so badly, but because he knew that the best way to destroy them or conquer them was to know as much about them as possible.

However, in the book series he hardly bothers learning anything about humans and earth. Either because he doesn't find them "worthy" to learn about, or whatever other reason. What's everyone's thoughts on this?
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2009, 08:40:50 AM »
He believes Humans are weak and unworthy. Yeah, I'd say there was a better way to deal with the Yeerks. Namely having the Arn bioengineer hosts for Yeerks, and changing the physical makeup of Yeerks so that they can only thrive in that host species. Basically, turn them into Iskoort.


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Offline dolphin4077

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2009, 11:06:06 AM »
One other question about Esplin 9466 that always comes to mind when I read this:

Esplin decided to become an expert on Andalites not only because he wanted a host so badly, but because he knew that the best way to destroy them or conquer them was to know as much about them as possible.

However, in the book series he hardly bothers learning anything about humans and earth. Either because he doesn't find them "worthy" to learn about, or whatever other reason. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

I think it was a combo of thinking humans weren't worthy and being affected by Andalite arrogance.   

Offline JFalcon

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2009, 11:30:56 AM »
In the scheme of things I think he was just peeved at being given a security assignment, which is all earth was. He wanted to be out there fighting the real war, he was good at that, his desire to just fight his enemies rather than sit and brood was evident in Visser when he practically begs to be allowed to start blowing stuff up.

I think he saw earth as a garrison job, sub-visser duty, boring work, uninteresting. He boasts to Elfangor but in the end I think he was just bored out of his mind, probably thought he must have done something wrong to get assigned to a backwater garrison world when the real fighting went on elsewhere.

On top of that he does show a certain level of contempt for humans, they're hardly the "worthy" adversariers the Andalites were.

My problem is he's so much more likeable in HBC it made it harder to dislike him in the main series, I mean maybe it's just the spark of youth but I had the slightest difficulty buying that Esplin was really Visser 3, I mean I knew he was but at points they feel like two different characters.

On to the questions.
Discussion Questions
Feel free to add your own questions

1) This book is interesting because we get to see characters such as Alloran and Visser Three pre-Animorphs era. Visser Three - Esplin 9466 - makes the comment that he does not approve of one of his colleagues because he is ruthless and violent. At what point do you think Esplin crosses the line and becomes just as ruthless and violent?

2) What do you think would have happened to Aldrea if the Yeerks had not destroyed her family?

3) The Arn are powerful biological engineers. They created the Hork-Bajir and all of the mutated monsters of Father Deep in an effort to save their planet after an asteroid hits. What do you think about this use of technology?

4) What do you think about Alloran's decision to use the Quantum Virus? Was it a necessary evil?

5) General opinions of the book overall?

1) Probably about the same time he got stuck guarding Taxxons for a living in TAC. I think he came to the point where having enough power to just end people's lives at his whim started doing things to his head, like I said, he lost that spark of youth.

2) They'd have gotten as irritated with her as I did and fed her to an Antarean Bogg.

3) It's better than when they decided to use it to make themselves even less useful to the Yeerks than Gedds.

4) I think Alloran might deserve more credit than he gets here. What exactly do the Animorphs keep spouting? Oh yeah, "Freedom or death" Alloran knew the Hork-Bajir couldn't have freedom, and he knew the only way to save them from slavery and save his people from having to fight them for years to come was to give them the second option. His method might have been cruel, but I think, if you're going to talk about "give me freedom or give me death" you shouldn't complain when someone out of options actually follows through on your request. I don't think it's something he came to lightly, or even very easily because he was fighting alongside the very people he was about to exterminate, I think he was just that desperate. That said while I can understand why he did it and even sympathize with him, every slave still has a chance to regain their freedom, I think it was the wrong decision.

5) It's a good book but imo it suffers whenever Aldrea narrates, she grinds on my nerves pretty badly after a while. I didn't like her as a kid, I thought being older and rereading it I could understand her better but I find I like her less and less every time I read it. Other than that I find the Esplin and Dak narrations very worthwhile, and I love seeing the early days of the Yeerk empire, even if they do slightly contradict things said in previous books.
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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 05:01:18 PM »
Quote
5) It's a good book but imo it suffers whenever Aldrea narrates, she grinds on my nerves pretty badly after a while. I didn't like her as a kid, I thought being older and rereading it I could understand her better but I find I like her less and less every time I read it. Other than that I find the Esplin and Dak narrations very worthwhile, and I love seeing the early days of the Yeerk empire, even if they do slightly contradict things said in previous books.

I didn't mind Aldrea's narration. I think she was pretentious and arrogant and annoying...but that's what made her narration good. She was a complete product of her species, and it showed. The Yeerks don't call the Andalites arrogant "lords of the galaxy" for nothing.

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Offline JFalcon

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2009, 09:33:24 AM »
Quote
5) It's a good book but imo it suffers whenever Aldrea narrates, she grinds on my nerves pretty badly after a while. I didn't like her as a kid, I thought being older and rereading it I could understand her better but I find I like her less and less every time I read it. Other than that I find the Esplin and Dak narrations very worthwhile, and I love seeing the early days of the Yeerk empire, even if they do slightly contradict things said in previous books.

I didn't mind Aldrea's narration. I think she was pretentious and arrogant and annoying...but that's what made her narration good. She was a complete product of her species, and it showed. The Yeerks don't call the Andalites arrogant "lords of the galaxy" for nothing.

Hmm. Then that might be why I sympathize with the Yeerks so much  ;D
The thing is though I think she might have been just a little more haughty than your average Andalite . . . at least I hope so, because if they were all just like her I'd have run right up to Visser Three, said "Sign me up!", and shoved my own head in the Yeerk pool.  :P
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Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2009, 09:20:27 PM »
Yeah, I dunno. I think that, despite all KA did to show the darker side of the Andalites, a lot of people still see them as the "heroes". They were trying to blow up Earth, people!!!! I dunno, maybe individually they're just mildly irritating with their arrogance, but I'm not sure I would want to live around Andalites.

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Offline scherzando

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 02:50:55 AM »
HBC is definitely one of the best Ani books out there, I like it better than TAC.

Yeah after re-reading it I became more reassured about how self-centered Andalites really were. I mean, sometimes, it was just so heartbreaking to see Aldrea using Dak. And speaking of Dak, it was so painful during the scene where he found out about the Arn being Hork-Bajir's creator. I mean, dang. Imagine how Dak felt.

Offline morfowt

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2009, 05:00:04 AM »
I really can't imagine that actually... what's so painful about it? doesn't sound any less painful than hearing my mom say she gave birth to me...

Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2009, 08:56:31 AM »
I never really found that too painful eaither. Maybe a little sad that the Arn tried so hard to distance themselves from the creations that allowed their race to continue living. But I wouldn't really care that my ancestors were created instead of evolved.

Heck, that's what the Christian religion is all about, isn't it? Creationism? I'm an athiest nowadays, just for the record.


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Offline JFalcon

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2009, 01:10:41 PM »
Christianity doesnt mention the Arn actually, and honestly I for one can imagine it coming as a painful shock. See the difference between knowing your mom and dad made you and knowing some guy cooked up your first ancestors in a lab is that odds are your parents gave something resembling a [darn] whereas the Arn were pretty cold about the whole deal. They didn't even really like the Hork-Bajir, or take pride in them at all, if you compare them to parents there were neglectful parents.
They made the Hork-Bajir to be stupid little tools, dropped them on the surface and did their darndest to kill any who inadvertantly sought them out by making the monsters that became the thing of Hork-Bajir horror stories. Imagine knowing that your creators didn't really want your kind ever becoming too smart, or making too much progress, just wanted you to take good care of their trees while they laughed about what a bunch of idiots your whole species was, told you that your own level of inteligence, indded your personal existence was a fluke, and then to top things off, told your whole race to go [eff] themselves because they'd changed their own biology so the Yeerks couldn't infest them.
Essentially imagine your mother telling you she doesn't love you or your brothers and sisters and never will, that she only had you so you could work in her garden, felt that you, personally, were a freak and a mistake, and then sold you into slavery because she was tired of your ugly face.
Dak had every right to be upset, I'm just surprised he didn't go on an Arn killing spree.
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 01:16:31 PM »
The Arn weren't his parents. His parents were his parents. So it's not like his parents telling him that. It's like some other creature that has no impact or difference in his life saying it. Someone that he never even knew existed last week or so. That's more like how it is.

I do think the Arn should have done more to help the Hork-Bajir, especially since they had the technology. They could have made the Horks noninfestable, or created hosts for Yeerks, and changed them so that they required that one type of host body to live. Instead, they made a quantum virus to destroy the Horks. I'm not sure how that would have helped the Arn at all, though.


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Offline JFalcon

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 02:27:30 PM »
The comparison to parents was mostly for Morfowt who said

what's so painful about it? doesn't sound any less painful than hearing my mom say she gave birth to me...

If indeed we use the idea that the Arn are comparable to parents they'd be some of the most hateful, neglectful parents a child could ask for.

So it's not like his parents telling him that. It's like some other creature that has no impact or difference in his life saying it. Someone that he never even knew existed last week or so. That's more like how it is.

It's true he didn't know they existed but, does that make them less real? Once you accept them as your creator you have to deal with what that means. Rather than wondering what the meaning of life is you suddenly know it's to trim trees, give birth to more tree trimmers and absolutely nothing else.

Their impact on his lie was turning out to be, for all intents and purposes, the reason he existed. I really don't see why this wouldn't seem relevant. They invented a species that wasn't meant to grow any more inteligent or capable, wasn't meant to do anything but prune trees, a species that can't evolve to be smarter than that because inteligence is a freak accident.

Even if you assume that evolution doesnt exist and everyone was just made exactly as we are now by some kind of deity that implies that all our so-called advances are due to the knowledge we've gained thus far, so if the Hork-Bajir came about because the Arn made them how can they ever be more than they were as a people? Humans can grow smarter over generations as new technologies and learning methods are discovered, the Hork-Bajir couldn't. Dak wasn't the next stage of their evolution, he was a bug in the system. Dak's own child failed to be a seer, strongly suggesting that the seer genes weren't exactly super dominent, so it isn't like he could have bred stupidity out of his people, the "non-seer" gene in Aldrea's Hork-Bajir morph overpowered them and they were kept dormant until Tobi came around and I strongly suspect the Ellimist had a hand there. Hork-Bajir were doomed to a life of what Dak considered simplicity and what Aldrea considered stupidity.

The Arn were the core source of everything that made a difference or affected his life aside from his Andalite girlfriend who manipulated and used him (such a healthy relationship) they even built the monsters that had terrorized his people for generations, monsters that would have, and could have killed him and their only reason for doing so essentially added up to "we didn't want you bugging us" so I don't think he should have been able to essentially shrug off the Arn.

Dak wanted more for his people, he tried to teach them things and then found out they were the way they were not because they were a new species still learning, but because that was how they were built, his efforts were in vain, they'd never be like the Andalites, they'd never be smart enough for that, and some nameless god wasn't to blame, nor were the natural forces of evolution. No it was the Arn, those loveable little tinkerers.


. . . this message was actually trimmed for length  ;D
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 05:43:51 PM »
Ok, when you say it like that it does sound harsh. seers were supposed to be there to teach new things. Something special. Now it just seems like seers are a bug in the system, and the efforts they make don't amount to much at all. Sure seers do help a little, like how a seer taught them how to communicate with other valleys through musical instruments. But it's just too few and far between for the society to really advance.


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Offline morfowt

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 04:32:05 AM »
... you have a point, but I'm still having troubling imagining any pain...

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2009, 07:35:28 AM »
... you have a point, but I'm still having troubling imagining any pain...

I think that the more religious of a society you have, the more painful it would be. Imagine spending your whole life devoted to a certain deity, only to find out that you were created for the purpose of tree-trimming. Kind of takes the wonder out of the whole 'meaning of life' question. At least initially.

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Offline morfowt

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2009, 08:27:38 AM »
ah... that could be why I don't understand. I'm not religious in any way at all...

plus...

... you have a point, but I'm still having troubling imagining any pain...
when I wrote that, I didn't realize there was already a second page. so this was a reply to the last post on the first page...

It's true he didn't know they existed but, does that make them less real? Once you accept them as your creator you have to deal with what that means. Rather than wondering what the meaning of life is you suddenly know it's to trim trees, give birth to more tree trimmers and absolutely nothing else.

Their impact on his lie was turning out to be, for all intents and purposes, the reason he existed. I really don't see why this wouldn't seem relevant. They invented a species that wasn't meant to grow any more inteligent or capable, wasn't meant to do anything but prune trees, a species that can't evolve to be smarter than that because inteligence is a freak accident.

Even if you assume that evolution doesnt exist and everyone was just made exactly as we are now by some kind of deity that implies that all our so-called advances are due to the knowledge we've gained thus far, so if the Hork-Bajir came about because the Arn made them how can they ever be more than they were as a people? Humans can grow smarter over generations as new technologies and learning methods are discovered, the Hork-Bajir couldn't. Dak wasn't the next stage of their evolution, he was a bug in the system. Dak's own child failed to be a seer, strongly suggesting that the seer genes weren't exactly super dominent, so it isn't like he could have bred stupidity out of his people, the "non-seer" gene in Aldrea's Hork-Bajir morph overpowered them and they were kept dormant until Tobi came around and I strongly suspect the Ellimist had a hand there. Hork-Bajir were doomed to a life of what Dak considered simplicity and what Aldrea considered stupidity.

The Arn were the core source of everything that made a difference or affected his life aside from his Andalite girlfriend who manipulated and used him (such a healthy relationship) they even built the monsters that had terrorized his people for generations, monsters that would have, and could have killed him and their only reason for doing so essentially added up to "we didn't want you bugging us" so I don't think he should have been able to essentially shrug off the Arn.

Dak wanted more for his people, he tried to teach them things and then found out they were the way they were not because they were a new species still learning, but because that was how they were built, his efforts were in vain, they'd never be like the Andalites, they'd never be smart enough for that, and some nameless god wasn't to blame, nor were the natural forces of evolution. No it was the Arn, those loveable little tinkerers.
this quote explained a few things I was still not getting...

hmm... yeah I guess that could be pretty painful for Dak...

Offline Liberal Tobias

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Re: Group Re-Read: The Hork-Bajir Chronicles
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2012, 10:20:16 PM »
Re-reading the series on my own right now, and if this isn't the saddest, most affecting Animorph book in the entire series, then I don't know what is.

Dak has to be the most tragic figure in all of Animorphs.