Author Topic: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?  (Read 1968 times)

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Offline NothingFromSomething

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2017, 02:37:29 AM »
Right.  David did have it rough, even rougher than the others, no doubt.  Thing is, a stable person even under those circumstances doesn't go all serial-killer.

The kid was troubled even before that showdown fight at his house where his parents were taken, the books allude to that pretty strongly.  No, he might not have become a killer, but he wasn't a normal, decent, stable kid.

And even if you factor in all he's been through, it's still no excuse.  He dies. 

And the Animorphs, in a certain view, were better than even that.  I'd say it's more merciful to kill him, but a lot of people would side with them on the rat thing.  There's no third possibility, can't have him stay anything but a nothlit once he's gone rogue.


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Offline Shenmue654

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2017, 09:08:01 AM »
Honestly, I'm not sure I can comprehend the people that would see turning anyone into a rat as a mercy. Tobias may have willingly become a hawk, but that was his prerogative, in a way. He didn't exactly take every precaution to prevent it from happening. And he was still surrounded by humans--- his own friends. It may come as a surprise to learn this (well not really, most people know this implicitly--- just look at the football from Castaway XD) but leaving a human somewhere without the company of other humans *alone,* without any other form of torture, tends to drive the human bat**** insane. They hallucinate people to talk to, become paranoid, claw their own skin off to feel something. I wouldn't wish total solitude on my worst enemy, and that isn't even factoring in his lack of any humanity to cling to. Rats are social too, so he'd only be able to hide in their mind so long before the rat begins to become concerned.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 09:18:08 AM by Shenmue654 »

Offline Matches

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 09:16:24 AM »
Its a bad situation. I wonder if they could have had him nothlit as Saddler, its a messed up option but so are rat and killing him. They could have had him pretend to lose all memory and live a """normal""" life. Of course there is the issue of the real Saddlers body.

Sadller is another part that I dont like about the David books, it would have been more impactful for him to die if we had met or heard of him like, ever before that. It has no impact when he is just some random guy from nowhere, and they even say they dont like the real Saddler.

Offline ViciousVisser

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2017, 06:02:33 PM »
Does anybody else agree that the David arc is really dark compared to other books in the series?

When the Animorphs have to force him to become a nothlit, that part was so dark for me, even now that I'm an adult. Not to mention the fact that he attempted to kill them among all the other evil actions that he committed.

Marco: Oh, it's just a trash can. Chill out.
BAM! BAM! BAM!
Marco: Okay, so it's four trash cans.
Jake: Get off the sidewalk, you lunatic!
Marco: (yanks wheel right, bumps the sidewalk, grazes a parked car)
BAM! BAM! BAM!
Jake: Do you hate trash cans? Is that your problem? Do you just HATE TRASH CANS?!!

Offline RYTX

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2017, 06:47:58 PM »
Honestly, I'm not sure I can comprehend the people that would see turning anyone into a rat as a mercy. Tobias may have willingly become a hawk, but that was his prerogative, in a way. He didn't exactly take every precaution to prevent it from happening. And he was still surrounded by humans--- his own friends. It may come as a surprise to learn this (well not really, most people know this implicitly--- just look at the football from Castaway XD) but leaving a human somewhere without the company of other humans *alone,* without any other form of torture, tends to drive the human bat**** insane. They hallucinate people to talk to, become paranoid, claw their own skin off to feel something. I wouldn't wish total solitude on my worst enemy, and that isn't even factoring in his lack of any humanity to cling to. Rats are social too, so he'd only be able to hide in their mind so long before the rat begins to become concerned.

Just to argue the other side, No because I really do believe this: I don't understand the folks who see this as the crueler option. Personally, I have no interest in being dead. None. Ever. To botch a quote from Cassie I think "life, almost any life, is so much better than being dead". This was a theme in Animorphs, you need to be alive to have any sort of hope.

I'm not much of a people person, but even I admit being completely cut off forever would suck. Still, I'd rather risk it that be out and out dead, especially because we know with morphing you can retreat into the animals mind. Maybe not entirely or forever, but there is a respite.

Rat especially isn't high on the list, but to lead a new life, exploring freely, facing the challenges of life, however terrifying they may be still seems so so much better than the void I expect is waiting. If I'd been David I wouldn't be happy with it of course. Personally I doubt I'd ever beg for death, but I think  if I did, it'd take a long time to get there. Hopefully I'll never find out exactly what it takes to hit that switch though.


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I wouldn't wish total solitude on my worst enemy
As an aside, I can't help but feel odd whenever people say this either.  Clearly they don't have serious enough enemies.  ::)
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Offline Matches

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2017, 07:50:08 PM »
No remaining bit of your humanity left, stuck in an alien body, having to worry about being eaten by wild animals, only have other rats for company, being forced to eat garbage and dirt to sustain yourself, have to deal with disease which wild rats always get and fleas, being stuck on a cold windy rock for the rest of your life, no doubt going insane from the loneliness and living conditions. It would be a living hell essentially.

And all that would be horrific enough on a well adjusted adult, but an emotionally unstable child? Thats just messed up.

And yes the David books are way darker than anything else Ive seen so far.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 08:40:10 PM by Matches »

Offline Shenmue654

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2017, 03:59:55 PM »
This is an interesting (and revealing) divide between the group. More on that, although I might get a tad dramatic here:

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Personally I doubt I'd ever beg for death, but I think  if I did, it'd take a long time to get there. Hopefully I'll never find out exactly what it takes to hit that switch though.

Actually, it's a surprisingly easy switch to hit if you know how. People who commit suicide tend to do so because they gain no enjoyment from living. This happens for a variety of reasons, but the most common two are dehumanization and uselessness. Torture exploits the link between the two conditions very, very effectively. If you don't feel like a person--- that is, if you feel that you are just "an object" or "cattle"--- you will begin to feel that your own life holds no value, and will start to want to die. I experienced an only mildly toxic form of dehumanization as a kid. Namely, a brief bout with something like institutionalizatio n. It was still so bad that at one point I hated everything and everyone, and didn't want to live. The only thing that kept me from biting it was the belief that a god valued me for who I was, and saw others as they saw me.

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As an aside, I can't help but feel odd whenever people say this either.  Clearly they don't have serious enough enemies.

That's where you'd be wrong: it's precisely people who say this who have had really serious enemies. They just don't have them in the present. It's because they've felt terrible pain that they don't want it inflicted on anyone else, ever, not even people they hate. See: John McCain, and his virulent hatred of torture, even of terrorists that want to destroy us. I can't unsee the horror of becoming less than human and forced to live in filth and squalor because I live in its shadow. It could have happened to me, so so easily.

I didn't just read about Dolores Umbridge--- I "met her." Multiple times. And that's why I believe I have the authority to say that people like her, those Nice Lady Therapists, should never actually experience what they did to me and mine. Instead, they should be made to face the fact that they traumatized me and mine in the name of "helping us," and get fired, and make amends.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 04:04:53 PM by Shenmue654 »

Offline RYTX

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2017, 12:43:06 PM »
No remaining bit of your humanity left, stuck in an alien body, having to worry about being eaten by wild animals, only have other rats for company, being forced to eat garbage and dirt to sustain yourself, have to deal with disease which wild rats always get and fleas, being stuck on a cold windy rock for the rest of your life, no doubt going insane from the loneliness and living conditions. It would be a living hell essentially.
Yep, not convinced. Still seems better than being dead to me.



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Actually, it's a surprisingly easy switch to hit if you know how.
I'd say for some.
CDC stats (2013) say 17 percent of high schoolers had suicidal thoughts in the years, less than half make an attempt.  Most people don't want to die that much.
I'd most everyone has periods were they legimately feel worthless and empty, but when I say hit the switch, begging for death, I mean pursuing it, beg your tormentor, beg your self, beg the reaper and throw yourself at it.

The other thing is that David's capture should be looked at through the themes of the series.
The animorphs have all killed multiple sentient beings, but killing David, by anymeans necessary, in unfair battle assination, etc, they still weren't damaged enough to do that to themselves, so yes, it was self, which was something they'd have to deal with it later.

But moreover, trapping him leaves a choice.
In this series one of the chief mantras is free or dead. Life is necessary for hope, respect for life must endure....
Granted, trapping him limits some of his freedom. Killing him takes it all away.

A rat can find ways to die. Climb up and jump off a building, bait a cat or hawk, run under a car.  Asking Rachel was a deep and dramatic moment, but he could have found other ways if that's what he really wanted.

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It's because they've felt terrible pain that they don't want it inflicted on anyone else, ever, not even people they hate. See: John McCain
.
Idk some of the worst things of my life I'd definitely be willing to see on some other people. And only because I know the harm it could do. Guess McCain's just a better person than me.



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Offline Gaz

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2017, 09:50:17 PM »
Let's not forget that rats have a lifespan of 3 years at best.

Offline alaois

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2017, 06:41:52 AM »
I think part of this misses the sheer desperation that led to the plan to trap David as a rat.  It seems clear that they basically had no other plan, they couldn't be assured of beating him in a battle as they hadn't been able to do so already, morph capable soldiers are hard to kill even when you outnumber them with an entire yeerk army let alone just 6 to 1, and he had already threatened to give them up to the Yeerks... every second they wasted was dangerous, and if they battled him and failed to kill him, say he barely escaped, he might feel so threatened that he had nothing left to lose and attempt to team up with the Yeerks, or at least thought speak a little message to them to get the animorphs all captured/killed so they couldn't stop him after he escaped to another city.  Trapping him as a rat was the only smart way to outwit him at that point.  After that, it's a matter of whether they should have killed the david-rat when he was defenseless.  There are few other options that they could have actually forcefully trapped him as, it had to be small enough that he couldn't demorph, and weak enough that he wasn't still a threat and that he could never escape to inform on them to the yeerks.

Perhaps they should have given him the option to die after he was trapped as a rat.  Or at least humanely planned to regularly visit him on the island to give him company, at least having prison wardens to talk to wouldve kept him with some semblance of humanity, perhaps they could've left him with some kind of pass-times (a TV, books? could a rat somehow operate a gameboy? lol) he could have enjoyed in his human mind though that would've been a danger if they were discovered, but his thought speech ability was a danger anyway if anyone discovered rat island.  But a better option probably would have been to leave him to live out the remainder of his rat life with the Chee.  They wouldn't have needed to use violence to keep him in the underground dog park, as he couldn't exactly overpower them as a rat, and the chee have already shown they can imprison yeerks in their heads without violating their programming so a peaceful imprisonment would've worked.

From a narrative standpoint though, it was far more interesting to have that dark twisted ending.  I wouldn't have liked the ending had they solved it with a deus ex chee-ica.  Would've been more moral, humane, even logical (less danger of being discovered than on rat-island).  But wouldn't have been as good of a story.

Offline skribs

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Re: Do you guys enjoy the "David" books?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2017, 03:17:02 PM »
One of the issues I have with the trilogy is that it packs a lot of issues into one storyline, which might have been better explored in their own storyline.

I'm going to turn away from Animorphs and use Season 6 of 24 as an example.  During the premier weekend (which had 4 episodes over Sunday and Monday), you have several allegiance-flips by many different people, then you have Jack Bauer kill his friend, and 2 minutes later a nuke goes off in LA.  So you don't really care about Curtis getting shot, because it's immediately proceeded by a bigger problem, and the nuke just kind of falls flat because you've had so much else going on.

In the case of this trilogy, David being the focus makes the world leaders take a back seat, and as mentioned - this never gets brought up again.  Which world leader is a controller?  (It might be specified, but I don't remember).  Did the Yeerks try to take over world leaders again?  The stakes of this are never mentioned again, but are only used to make it seem more necessary that they get David into the fold immediately.  However, that could have been accomplished with any one of several options, including:

  • Any mission that requires 7 people or morphs to pull off
  • A time-critical mission that requires them to recruit immediately
  • A mission in which the odds are stacked as such that having more "teeth" (as Jurassic World would say) makes it much more likely to succeed

Leave the World Leaders for another story, and then address that issue then, and let it build into something.