Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: esplin on December 05, 2008, 02:13:45 AM
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The pity factor here, think its relevant?
Keep in mind that she didn't really know Tobias before he was trapped, His personality is greatly effected by it. It made him stronger, weaker, and many other things. Think she would have still liked him?
Please disregard MM4, Rachel considered dating Marco in that book, PROVING it was a un-reality that could never exist. ;)
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I dunno, I think MM#4 is actually important to making my point in this case. I re-read #30 just yesterday, and I found that Marco and Rachel actually clicked together pretty well throughout the book (from the playful teasing in the cafeteria to the way they kept up with each other on the final plan, despite their losing odds). The ending scene in #30, especially, showed how much alike they really are. Rachel basically knew not to BS or pity Marco about what happened, but to rather state the truth so that he could deal with the 'death' of his mother. Out of all of the Animorphs, she was the one that connected with him the most at his weakest point, and I think that's pretty important to consider because of how well they understood each other. From a strategic standpoint, I think they both saw things a bit similarly during the war also, so they both really had a lot going for them had they been paired up during the book series.
Anyways, the reason I'm saying all of this is because I feel the match up in MM#4 with Marco and Rachel wasn't completely outside the realm of possibility of Rachel being interested in Marco. Tobias, as you said above, always felt as a pity case to me when Rachel showed her feeling towards him. It's a relationship that I didn't really root for because I never really understood why Rachel would be attracted to Tobias other than pity. I mean, sure, she probably thought he was brave for fighting while living his life as a hawk, but even that is mixed with pity also. They really didn't have anything in common for the relationship to work, whether he was hawk or not.
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Yea, I got the feeling it was a pity kind of relationship, I don't think that if Tobias wasn't trapped that they'd be together, they were way too different.
By the way, *proud* I edited the title to this thread as Russell, you spelt Tobias wrong :P
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In the beginning, Rachel and Tobias had something going. They seemed to at least recognize each other, and Rachel has a picture of Human Tobias. This was never really explained, so I don't have much to say about it. Their intire relationship may, indeed, be rooted in pity, but pity seems to be what Tobias' character is about. I think it's likely that Marco and rachel could get together. They'd be the kind of couple that bickered a lot, but also cared for each other.
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Sorry, but I disagree. Tobias and Rachel work as a couple partly because they ARE different. They balance each other. Besides, Rachel showed concern for him even in the first book before he was trapped, iirc.
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Maybe Tobias was Rachel's soft spot, a part of her that faded more and more as the war went on. She felt that he was different enough, yet at the same time, a part of her that she longed for, that she felt that connection to Tobias. Rachel does have feelings!
Of course, even from the very beginning Tobias was Tobias and Rachel would have felt that anyway, so it could have been pity in the very beginning, that began to develop into something more. She started to realize that she didn't need to pity him, but at the same time, still cared about his well being.
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My basic idea here, and the theme of the my latest animorph discussion after a long time, is that the war made these characters who we are. We love them and connect with them as they fight this war, Its not like we have a few books of them not fighting it. Some chapters in the last book they're dealing with the aftermath but besides that its a look into the life of teenage warriors. Everything that happens is because of the war.
ABOUT MM4
I just feel that it was created by Crayak and basically never happened, like MM2.
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I think Marco/Rachel would be a much more plausible pairing than Tobias/Rachel had the war not happened. I know the scenario in MM4 had a lot of glitches/inconsistencies due to the fact that it was an artificial timeline, but I think some elements of that book could have come to pass, Marco/Rachel among them.
Maybe Tobias was Rachel's soft spot, a part of her that faded more and more as the war went on. She felt that he was different enough, yet at the same time, a part of her that she longed for, that she felt that connection to Tobias. Rachel does have feelings!
What always bothered me about Tobias' and Rachel's relationship was how Rachel kept pressuring Tobias to abandon his hawk form, but I think that relates to what you said about their connection. I think Rachel was afraid of completely succumbing to the warrior side of her and she wanted to save Tobias from that.
How about the flip side: Would Tobias have liked Rachel if he hadn't been trapped? Rachel represented one of his last ties to humanity--would he have needed her as much if he was still human?
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most guys like girls. =)
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I didn't see Rachel's feelings as being just pity. Pre-war Rachel's often described as wanting and needing more from life, and Tobias complemented that side of her. There's a part of her that needs to be fighting for something, and in the first book she starts showing support and affection for Tobias when she sees how energized he is when he finds something to fight for. She describes herself and Tobias as fellow warriors. She also recognizes that Tobias is struggling to deal with the two sides of himself, the boy and the hawk, which helps her to balance her own two sides.
She has chemistry with Marco too, but I think her relationship with Tobias resonated much more with the deeper sides of her personality.
Without the war they probably would have still been friends, but with little chance of that deep bond forming.
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i think the pity helped boost the relationship at first, but she really loved him.
[spoiler]too bad it had to end that way :-[[/spoiler]
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nice avatar and sig hylian dan. loving it!
but yeah, I think marco and rachel have chemistry, but tobias and rachel have bond and romance.
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i think she really like tobias. if u look way back at the 1rst book when tobias is still human, she already seems to be starting to like him. she says she cares about him at the mall when tobias is sayin no1 else does and stuff. so i think had he stayed human, she woulda liked him still and proly they woulda been able to have a real relationship 2
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but why? is he good looking?
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he always had a good discription i thought
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would you girls be attracted to tobias (assuming you don't know that much about him*
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I wish I hadn't read through all the books again so quickly(3 days) cause one of the later ones, Rachel's point of view, talked about how she liked Tobias before he was trapped as a hawk. But I doubt it was much of a relationship as much as she thought he was cute. I think the Hawk may have added pity, but that alone wouldn't be enough.
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I think that old human tobias was alot different than later hawk tobias, he was more confident and assertive. But rachel liked him before he changed, I think because her parents split up she prized loyalty and responsibility alot more, which tobias demonstrated right from the start, rachel and tobias were the only two who were completely sure they were going to fight.
I think Rachel and Marco had a real connection during the war. They seem like best friends almost, how they understand eachother and see things the same way, and obviously enjoy their humorous back and forth. I think in MM4 rachel just began to see the qualities in marco that she respected and was attracted to. I think there was an attraction between them, but almost an understanding that they werent right for eachother because while they teased and flirted neither of them actually ever tried to make anything from it
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From the subtle hints in the first book, we can easily tell that Rachel cares about Tobias. For example, when Tobias points out that nobody gives a damn about him, Rachel insists that she does.
Some people might claim that Megamorphs #4 was evidence against this, but that was a reality where they didn't get the morphing power or join the war at all (at least to begin with). However, if they had still got the morphing power and fought the Yeerks but Tobias hadn't been trapped, Rachel and Marco would have ended up the same as always and Tobias would have ended up dating Rachel at some point, probably way before the first Jake/Cassie kiss.
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they admited their feelings 2 one another way b4 the jake and cassie kiss. those 2 were def meant to be way since the beginning b4 tobias became a hawk
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Rachel was not lover of Tobias even when he was sampled human-self from memory dream. So why would her love his without hawkness?
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would you girls be attracted to tobias (assuming you don't know that much about him*
I'm not sure. I don't think I'd be able to be with a hawk though :P
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as was said earlier, back in book 1 she showed obvious caring for him, even tho he was still human.
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I agree, I believe that it was Tobias that Rachel liked, not Hawk-Tobias. I think Rachel just had the bravery to admit it after Tobias was trapped.
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I challenge the premise of the question. Tobias wouldn't be Tobias without becoming a nothlit. KA gives us front-row seats of his struggle to come to terms with his hawkishness, and how it changes him. Without his predator half, he would have remained merely a poetic, depressed, total wuss. He wouldn't have done anything like the cat-chasing, butt-kicking, swimming, torture-enduring, self-sacrificing, merciful, heroic Tobias we all know.
Seriously, who here is happy with MM4 Tobias? He's very much not Tobias, just someone similar with the same name, an earlier, pathetic revision who dies a pathetic--but entirely in-character--death.
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I challenge the premise of the question. Tobias wouldn't be Tobias without becoming a nothlit. KA gives us front-row seats of his struggle to come to terms with his hawkishness, and how it changes him. Without his predator half, he would have remained merely a poetic, depressed, total wuss. He wouldn't have done anything like the cat-chasing, butt-kicking, swimming, torture-enduring, self-sacrificing, merciful, heroic Tobias we all know.
Seriously, who here is happy with MM4 Tobias? He's very much not Tobias, just someone similar with the same name, an earlier, pathetic revision who dies a pathetic--but entirely in-character--death.
But my question is could Tobias have become the character we all love and did those things you mentioned if he had stayed a human Animorph?
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yea. she did say she cared 4 him wen he sed no one cared. & he also used 2 sit only on her arm in da 1st book. They barely knew each other then, and he had just been trapped 4 a few days. Buy yea, Marco and Rachel would have been a better couple. Except that Rachel is way taller than Marco.
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well ya know what? I think this is what was happening. marco and rachel would have dated had they openly admitted that they liked each other. but openly admitting it would just destroy the playful chemistry they had with each other.
think of it like this. you know that stage right before you admit to a girl or guy that you liked each other. you know, the playful "i think you like me, but i'm not entirely sure so we'll just dance around each other" stage? that one stage where you don't ever really tell each other directly that you care for the other person? you want to, but you're still holding back? i think rachel and marco stayed at that stage. and probably mainly because marco probably never made a serious move (considering rachel is his best friend's cousin), and when tobias came along something else started and that playful chemistry between marco and rachel just stayed where it was. maybe went back a little.
but my question, is why would a girl like rachel like tobias? even in the very first book, wasn't that where they actually met? was it physical features? or what?
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but my question, is why would a girl like rachel like tobias? even in the very first book, wasn't that where they actually met? was it physical features? or what?
This one. I wonder about it too.
Rachel is tough from the beginning, it was Tobias who changed throughout the series, from a helpless kid into a stronger (and wiser? I got the vibes) one. What attraction did Rachel found inside Tobias? Did she ever had a real, like, conversation with him before they all meet at the mall? To at least knew something about him that made him more worthy than he seemed for her? Was it just pheromone? :P
For about why Tobias liked Rachel, I don't know the answer also... (perhaps it's just The Rachel Charm or something) But at least in MM2 he clarified it. Then we don't have to wonder. Whatever reason he had, he definitely had a crush with Rachel from the very start.
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I don't remember Tobias dying in MM4. Last thing I remembered, he was close to becoming a voluntary controller.
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then u must not have finished the book. basically at the end of it all jake is the only 1 left alive
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I'm pretty sure I finished it. Marco, Rachel and Casie died. Cassie came back to life, and kept Ax and Jake from getting killed by V3. The three of them were on the bladeship bridge, about to destroy the poolship one way or another. Tobias wasn't involved in that last fight. That's what I remember.
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thats cuz he never crossed the construction site, so he never got the power to morph, so he joined the sharing and then later died
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I reread the last few chapters. Tobias was unfortunate enough to be enslaved by a Yeerk who wasn't loyal the V3. So he was executed along with Odrett.
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I don't remember Tobias dying in MM4. Last thing I remembered, he was close to becoming a voluntary controller.
No, no. He really died. Let's see...
Visser Three laughed. <You betrayed Visser One, Odret. Should I keep you around to betray me? Kill him.>
A Hork-Bajir pressed a Dracon Beam against my head. I felt it. Felt Odret's terror. Felt my own shock, fear. Regret.
"No!" my mouth cried. "NO!"
Felt slight pressure as the Hork-Bajir's finger tightened.
Felt --
Odret was quite a nice name.
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I just posted that I reread the last few chapters. I stand corrected, and Tobias met his end. My mistake. Ax was about to die from blood loss if he didn't morph something, but he may have been resigned to die after blasting the poolship and possibly disabling the bladeship. Of course, V3 would have killed them if Cassie hadn't been subtemporaly grounded.
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I don't remember Tobias dying in MM4. Last thing I remembered, he was close to becoming a voluntary controller.
yeah but then he became a controller with a yeerk that's loyal to visser 1, and visser 3 found out and in the end killed him...
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Is anyone even reading my last two posts?
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lmao
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Is anyone even reading my last two posts?
sorry...somehow I missed the last page...
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Is anyone even reading my last two posts?
Whoa, I also, missed the last page. :P
My bad.
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Rule: first-person past-tense narrators never die.
Unless the cover says "K. A. Applegate."
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I never noticed that before. I don't read a lot of first person, past tense narrations, or understand what makes something first person, past tense.
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I was there with Marco, my best friend.
I = first person
other possibilities:
he/she/they/name (no I, usually) = third person
you = second person (very rare, mostly limited to interactive novels)
was/were = past-tense
other possibilities:
am/are/is = present tense
The most common types of narration are third-person past, first-person past, and third-person present:
3rd past: Jake was there with his best friend, Marco.
1st past: I was there with my best friend, Marco.
3rd present: Jake is there with his best friend, Marco.
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lol at the conversation nohensen is having...
...and thank you for the lesson wildweathel. clears up a lot
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Don't laugh at me! :-[ *runs away*
joking.
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The war had changed both of them, and those changes caused them to grow closer together. Without the war, I think they would have been friends, but nothing more. Jake would still have saved Tobias from the guys giving him swirlies and he would have walked with the rest of the group through the construction site. They would have a connection, but nothing intimate.
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but dont forget back in book 1 rachel is already obviously starting to like him, even b4 he became a hawk
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but WHY?!
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but WHY?!
Exactly, Rachel is a strong, confident, and kinda mean girl. Shes not the type to be like, oooh look how sad and pathetic he is, let me fix up his life.
She liked him more as he became a hawk because he got stronger, so she had that to admire most of all, so she could go ahead and feel bad for him.
See what I mean? I dont think she would have ever liked purely weak human Tobias.
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but WHY?!
I think she was simply friendly with Tobias before book 1, probably from having a few classes together. She starts to like him in book one because she notices how energized he is to have something to fight for, which is what she is feeling. So she defends him from Marco's harsh remarks, and he's grateful to her. Thus they bond.
Seriously, who here is happy with MM4 Tobias? He's very much not Tobias, just someone similar with the same name, an earlier, pathetic revision who dies a pathetic--but entirely in-character--death.
He's not a great role model there, but I have a ton of sympathy for him. The way his narration was written in MM4 really sounded to me like KA was indirectly writing about suicide.
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in book 1 rachel specifically says she cares bout him. not even cassie said anything when he was getting down on himself. if any1 was gona say something like that just to make him feel better, it woulda been cassie. the fact that it was rachel clearly implies a feeling stronger than just sympathy or whatever, cuz thats just not her character
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yeah, plus, i think didn't they just meet in book 1?
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I think they always knew of each other (from the looks of things, everyone in their school knew of Rachel), but they just never interacted.
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she would. remember what was in book 1? when marco started talking about the risk for what they're gonna do, that he didn't want his father lose. and rachel said to him that they have family to worry about, too. then tobias answered sadly, "no one gives a rat's rear bout me". and rachel answered, "i do".
isn't it a proof that rachel had a feeling for tobias before he trapped?
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I'm still curious about how deep her feelings were at that time.
It didn't seem like it was a long time between Jake had saved him from the bullies and the incident at the construction site.
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yeah, but when did those feelings arise?
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I think this is the first flicker of affection between them, and it's probably what leads to Rachel's comment that she cares about him:
"I tried to tell myself it was all a dream," Rachel said.
"Been there," I said.
For a while no one said anything. We all felt the same terrible feeling - like we were all
alone.
Like suddenly we were dealing with stuff that was way, way, way over our heads.
Marco spoke first. "Look, why do we have to deal with this? I say we just forget it. We never
talk about it. We never morph. We just deal with our own lives."
Tobias and Rachel both looked at me. They were waiting for me to argue with Marco.
...
"What do you say, Jake?" Cassie asked.
"Me?" I shrugged. "I don't know. Marco's right, we could all get killed. Rachel's right, this is
too major for a bunch of kids." I hesitated. I didn't like what I was about to say. "But Tobias
is right, too. I mean, the whole world is in danger. And we can't trust anyone."
"So, what do we do?" Rachel demanded.
"Hey, it's not up to me to decide," I said hotly.
"Let's take a vote," Rachel said.
"I vote we try to live long enough to get driver's licenses," Marco said.
"I vote we do what the Andalite said - fight," Tobias said.
"You've never even been in a fight," Marco sneered. "You can't handle the punks at school.
Suddenly now you want to kick butt on that Visser Three freakazoid?"
Tobias said nothing, but a blush spread up his neck.
"I vote with Tobias," Rachel said, giving Marco a dirty look. "I wish we could dump all this
on someone else. But we can't."
"Let's think it over for a while," Cassie said. "This is a big decision. I mean, it's not like we're
deciding whether to wear jeans or a skirt."
I was relieved. Thank goodness for Cassie.
"Yeah, let's wait for a while," I agreed. "In the meantime, no one say anything to anyone. We
just go back to normal life."
There was a smirk on Marco's face. He thought he'd won. But I wasn't so sure. Tobias was
still blushing. He sent a secret, grateful look to Rachel.
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yes i def agree with the quote!
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true that.
thinking about it from our point of view, rachel is this girl that could be model status. in my opinion, model girls don't go for wimpy crap like tobias. then again, rachel isn't your avrage day girl.
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I just thought of something, and someone's probably already brought this up, but even if Tobias decided to keep his human form and Rachel survived, he'd be like three years younger than her, wouldn't he? I mean, he did/does morph his thirteen year-old self since he acquired his own DNA from the day before they went to construction site
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yes he'd be three years younger, but is that that big of a problem?
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Three years isn't really much of a thing. Especially since his true age won't be that far below hers.
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I guess, but maybe it would be if they were worried about height/age difference? xP Though technically, I guess they would be the same age
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Doesn't the DNA age or something? I think there was a thread talking about this before, but I don't remember what the conclusion was.
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well technically tobias would be the same age as everybody else if he did become a human nothlit. while his human form may look like that of a 13 yr old, he did age 3 yrs, so mentally he is 16 as well. just physically he would look 13
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Doesn't the DNA age or something? I think there was a thread talking about this before, but I don't remember what the conclusion was.
I don't think there was a conclusion...my conclusion, the DNA ages once you become a nothlit...
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well technically tobias would be the same age as everybody else if he did become a human nothlit. while his human form may look like that of a 13 yr old, he did age 3 yrs, so mentally he is 16 as well. just physically he would look 13
well, physically, but what about chemically? ^^
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I see no reason, even if Rachel and Tobias did kind of say the other person was cute, for Rachel's popular social circle and Tobias's toilet swirly social circle to ever collide.
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true that. Rachel's the kind of girl that wouldn't go for a guy like Tobias without good reason. She is smart, pretty, and most of all, ruthless. Why would she want a wimp like him?
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I see no reason, even if Rachel and Tobias did kind of say the other person was cute, for Rachel's popular social circle and Tobias's toilet swirly social circle to ever collide.
*nodnod* Even though MM4 didn't really happen or whatever, I'm pretty sure that's how it would have played out. Maybe not the voluntary controller thing on Tobias's side. But still, Rachel and Tobias might not have even had much interest in hanging out with each other. Just because Tobias was the "dweeb" or "bully-magnet", he might not have been interested in Rachel. He might have been the one who decided not to chase after her or something.
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oh well, i think tobias would have been interested but only in the "girl of his dreams that he has no hope of getting" sense.
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I was searching through the board and found this old thread and I thought I have to say something to it.
I haven't read MM4 yet but in the first book were a few hints that they at least have known each other and that there were something between them, whatever it was.
true that. Rachel's the kind of girl that wouldn't go for a guy like Tobias without good reason. She is smart, pretty, and most of all, ruthless. Why would she want a wimp like him?
Ruthless? I don't think so. The Rachel in the first book wasn't ruthless. She was brave and she became ruthless during the war, but in the first book she was an almost normal girl. Very pretty, smart and brave.
I imagine Rachel as a protective person. Maybe they had classes together and she was nice to him. Rachel is not the kind of person who don't talk to someone just because the others don't like this person. Maybe she talked to him in class and she realized that he's nice and maybe she thought she was cute.
And Tobias? Well, Rachel was described as very pretty and self-confident and he wasn't. Maybe had a crush on her before the war started. And when he realized that this pretty girl was so much more than just good looking he fell in love with her.
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Pre-morph-capable (before being aware of Yeerks and obviously before Tobias Nothlit):
Tobias is seen as a loner, dreamer, and is bullied for it. My impression is that physically he's probably better off than Marco even if Marco is described as "cute". The difference between the two is the way that they project themselves. Tobias has his own issues to worry about so doesn't consider how others may perceive him. Marco being the more cautious (and later on strategic) type is careful how people look at him. I get the feeling that if Jake and Marco weren't friends people could pick on Marco for his height, probably even more so if he behaved the same as Tobias.
Jake and Rachel have always been similar (not just necessarily because they're related) but their characters are decent and brave. Those two characteristics combined can form the hero type who protect others from injustice. This isn't just about pity but a desire to protect others. On it's own this isn't enough to convince Rachel to fall for Tobias but it is enough to notice unfairness. In Jake's case, he saved Tobias once from being bullied which is the type of thing a good guy would do but might not continually keep an eye out for him. For a popular girl like Rachel and with a similar hero type personality she's more likely to keep an eye out afterwards not just for a once off rescue. Sometimes just being on someone's radar is enough to create a rapport. Unlike Jake who sees the injustice to Tobias peripherally, Rachel makes a connection.
Another key thing is their familial backgrounds. Jake is in a happy magical bubble no divorced family and isn't the oldest. Rachel is the oldest of her family and is divorced. She holds responsibility for her siblings and is aware of how difficult life can be. As the oldest sibling I can definitely say I'm more protective of people and feel less coddled. It's more natural for the oldest sibling to feel more responsibility. Jake's main worry pre-Yeerk invasion was making the cut for the basketball team. Rachel probably had other concerns as well (not just gymnastics) like making sure Jordan and Sara weren't staying up too late especially since their parents are fairly busy (their father living elsewhere too).
Tobias is a single child and his uncle and aunt try to pass him off to each other as if nobody wants him. With this kind of neglected background when growing up Tobias would learn to live in his dreams. The lack of care that was shown to him made him a withdrawn type of person, a dreamer. This also creates an air of mystery around him that certain people may pick up like there's something more to this person than meets the eye. This could be what attracted Rachel to Tobias.
Almost right at the start of the first book KA throws us into an alien encounter so the only background that we get from the Animorphs comes later on. The key thing to remember though is that right from the get go they have to stop trusting everyone else. You can't trust anyone who could potentially be a controller. So... the only potential people you can date are the other Animorphs. Is it too surprising that Rachel finds Marco a bit of a wuss and a jerk? It's fairly obvious Jake was never in the equation that leaves Tobias. Is it surprising that Rachel prefers Tobias to Marco?
As for the more shallow reasoning: someone who is considered one of the most beautiful girls in the school would not really pick someone short like Marco unless there was something else going for him.
Now combine the personality types, Rachel and Tobias's rapport and physical appearance it's virtually inevitable that Rachel ends up developing a relationship with Tobias.